44-40 Unique challanges H&A XL No. 8

I would use the Hytec coated soft lead (10-12 bh). The coating will prevent leading and the lead is soft enough to seal off. The softer the better on the lead,

In a perfect world the cylinder throats should be larger. You can have them reamed, but I would not do it on a collector piece as yours.

With the coated bullets it would become a bore rider, but you will not have the leading problem. No need going larger than your throats since it will reduce the bullet. BP is more work since you have to wash every thing good afterwards. I would use a smokeless powder maybe Trail Boss.

But in any case it would best to use pure lead. It will/should expand and seal to prevent leading. Remember BP requires a different lube.

How did you measure the throats? calipers or pin gauges? Are all the same?

I have read of a lot of period revolvers with cylinder throats smaller than groove diameter. Soft bullets and black powder must have worked reasonably well. Driftwood Johnson has Merwin Hulberts that might have given him experience on the type.

I would go BP only in your revolver.

Johnm1 said:

Background on this revolver/load. It was designed as a black powder cartridge firearm and I'm likely to load it in black powder mostly because I can and that is what it b.v was designed for. The local gunsmith believes it could handle the low pressure `Cowboy' loads. And by the heft and sizes involved I'm sure it could. Although if a low pressure smokeless load would bump up the bullet better, I'd consider it with enough research. Though I seem to remember that black powder will bump up the bullet better than most smokeless loads. I'd like your opinion on that aspect.

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Howdy

With all due respect, your gunsmith does not appear to know very much about 19th Century revolvers. I would not dream of shooting Smokeless powder through any of my antique revolvers. It does not have anything to do with the heft and size of the revolver, it has everything to do with the material the cylinder is made from. Commercial 'Cowboy Loads' are not as low velocity or low pressure as many assume. They are not the typical Mousefart loads that many CAS shooters handload, to duplicate 38 Special low recoil in a large caliber cartridge, such as 45 Colt or 44-40.

Consider this: Colt did not feel comfortable factory warrantying the Colt Single Action Army for Smokeless powder until 1900. That was the date that they felt metallurgy had advanced enough to take the higher pressures, but more importantly the sharper pressure spike of Smokeless powder. Previous to that time Colt did not feel the iron, yes iron, originally used for Colt frames and cylinders, and later the relatively low carbon steel they were using was strong enough for Smokeless powder. I guarantee you that H&A did not have access to steel that was any better than what Colt was using at the time. While I am on the subject, Colt was using iron for frames and cylinders up until about mid 1883. So I would not be a bit surprised if your cylinder was iron, not steel.

Forget about Trail Boss. Many shooters believe that because of the name it is a low pressure propellant. Some even believe it is a Black Powder Substitute. It is neither. Check out the burn rate of Trail Boss. A little bit slower than Bullseye, a little bit faster than Unique.

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf



Getting back to your H&A revolver. Yes, many of the features are very similar to a Merwin Hulbert. I respect Ian McCollum a great deal, he has probably forgotten more than I will ever know about antique revolvers, but he keeps putting an AND between the names Merwin Hulbert, which is incorrect. A minor point. H&A did not just make parts for the Merwin Hulbert revolvers, they manufactured them lock, stock, and barrel. Notice how similar the hammer is shaped on this Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army to the hammer on your H&A revolver. This one is chambered for 44-40.







As Ian says, the loading gate is just about identical. Hint: when loading a MH with only five rounds, load 2, skip one chamber, load 3 more, than cock the hammer and carefully lower it and the hammer will be down on an empty chamber. I could tell watching Ian's video the procedure will be exactly the same for your H&A because of the position of the loading gate. This is different than a Colt, where one loads 1, skips one, then loads 4 more.






As I said a little while earlier, Hopkins and Allen made all the Merwin Hulbert revolvers. This is the marking on the side of the barrel on this one.






This is the marking on the top.






Regarding your measurements, do your self a favor and buy a set of small hole gauges. Look them up on Amazon. You should be able to buy a set for not much more than $20. This is a set of Starrett Small Hole Gages, and they cost considerably more than $20, but you can find alternative brands at Amazon for much less.







The idea is you slip a gage into a hole, twist the handle until it just touches the diameter of the hole, then remove the gage and measure it with your calipers. With a little practice you can get very accurate with these. More accurate than sticking the inside measuring jaws of a caliper into a hole, because there is always an error cause by the flats on the jaws. I usually use the largest one on the right for measuring chamber mouths. Just checked the chamber mouths on this Merwin, they are actually only running around .423 in diameter.






I cannot really tell you exactly what the groove diameter is on this Merwin because it has 5 groove rifling. As you may be aware it is much easier to determine groove diameter on a barrel with an even number of grooves than with an odd number. I will tell you to put away your calipers. The best way to determine groove diameter is to slug the bore with a soft lead bullet. This too will alleviate the error caused by placing the inside measuring jaws inside a small hole. If you need instructions about how to slug a bore, just ask.

44-40 is a quirky caliber. The 19th Century standard groove diameter was .427, however it could vary from down around .425 to up beyond .430. Most bullet manufacturers today are using .427 as a standard, however many firearms manufacturers are using the same .429 barrels they use for 44 Special and 44 Magnum.

Years ago I used to load all my 44-40 ammo with .427 bullets. I have a bunch of rifles chambered for the cartridge and I have slugged all their barrels. They run from .427 to .429. Some are antiques, some are modern made. Anyway, a number of years ago I standardized on .428 bullets for all my Black Powder 44-40 ammunition. Yes, I am running Black Powder ammo with .428 diameter bullets through those .423 chamber throats. It does not seem to be causing any problems, probably mainly because I am only using Black Powder and the pressure generated is not very high.

Blue68f100 said:

BP is more work since you have to wash every thing good afterwards. I would use a smokeless powder maybe Trail Boss.

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Fooey! I have been loading Black Powder ammunition for many years. Clean up is not as difficult as most believe, and you absolutely do not have to take the gun completely apart every time. I can elaborate if desired. I have already given my opinion on Trail Boss in antique revolvers.

Johnm1 said:

Can you confirm that MH never manufactured anything? I have conflicting stories that they had a factory in Norwich as well.

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This is the most authoritative book that exists about Merwin Hulbert revolvers. The history of the company is complicated. There were several different companies producing firearms in Norwich, Connecticut during the second half of the 19th Century. In a nutshell, Merwin Hulbert & Company held a half interest in Hopkins and Allen. In 1874 Charles A Converse, a principal in the founding of Hopkins and Allen, sold his interest in Hopkins and Allen to Merwin, Hulbert and Company. Firearms continued to be produced by H&A, mostly lower quality pocket revolvers. All of the Merwin Hulbert revolvers were produced on the same equipment that was used to produce the other firearms that carried the Hopkins and Allen name. That's it in a nutshell. Mewin Hulbert & Company also marketed firearms and other sporting goods produced by other companies, they had a large catalog that listed Merwin Hulbert revolvers as well as Hopkins and Allen and several other manufacturers products. There was another factory in South Coventry, Connecticut, but all the Merwin Hulbert revolvers were produced in the Norwich location.

Johnm1 said:

I did slug the bore using dead soft lead. I can never count the number of lands/grooves by looking down the barrel. The view just confuses me. But what I do is mark all of the lands on the slug with marker and count the grooves in between after it is slugged. It helps my pea brain not get confused.

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That is as good a method as any to count grooves. Interestingly enough every Smith and Wesson barrel I have ever looked down also has five grooves, which makes it difficult to accurately measure groove diameter too. Regarding how soft a bullet is, my rule of thumb is if I can dig my thumbnail into a bullet, it is soft enough for Black Powder.

I suggest you look into the Big Lube 200 grain Mav-Dutchman bullet for your 44-40 Black Powder ammunition. I have been using this bullet for years in all my 44-40 and 44 Russian Black Powder cartridges. This photo shows the huge lube groove these bullets carry, specifically designed for Black Powder cartridges.






I used to cast them myself, these days I buy them from Whyte Leather Works. I am not sure if they are cast from pure lead, but they are very soft. He sizes them to .427 or .429, your choice. I actually have him size mine to .428, but .427 and .429 are his standard diameters. He fills the lube groove with his own mixture of Black Powder compatible bullet lube, and they work very well in all my Antique 44 Russian Smith and Wesson revolvers as well as my 44-40 rifles and my 44-40 Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Howdy Again

That is the current SAAMI standard configuration for the 44-40 round. Notice it calls out bullet diameter as .427 +.000/-.003., and groove diameter as .4285 +.002/-.000.

As I said earlier, at the time your revolver was manufactured, groove diameter of 44-40 could vary considerably, as low as .425, as high as .430 or more.

SAAMI is exactly what it says. Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute.

It is a volunteer organization. It has no legal or government standing, it is simply an organization that sets standards for the firearms industry to voluntarily adhere to.

SAAMI keeps standards on mechanical dimensions of ammunition and other related things such as chamber dimensions and rifling dimensions. It also sets the standards for maximum acceptable pressure for most cartridges.


Before SAAMI existed, some cartridges were developed by the government, some by firearms manufacturers. 45 Colt was developed in 1873 at the government operated Frankford Arsenal. Here is an early box of 45 Colt ammunition produced at the Frankford Arsenal. The cartridge was developed in consultation with Colt for the Colt Single Action Army revolver.






This was the original configuration of the 45 Colt cartridge. It was copper cased, not brass. It featured a type of inside priming called Benet priming after the commander of the Arsenal. Although they look like rimfire rounds, they are not. There is an anvil plate inside, held in position by the crimps at the bottom of the case. The priming material is sandwiched between the bottom of the case and the bottom of the anvil plate. When the firing pin dented the soft copper case, the priming material was compressed between the bottom of the case and the anvil plate. There are two flash holes in the anvil plate that allowed the flame to pass through and ignite the main powder charge. Notice how tiny the rims were on these cartridges because they were originally conceived only as a revolver cartridge. There was never an extractor on the old Colts, empties were punched out from the inside by an ejector rod, so all the tiny rim had to do was prevent the cartridge from being shoved further into the chamber when struck by the firing pin. The round all the way on the right is one of my modern 45 Colt reloads.






This cutaway view shows the interior anvil plate.






Even though the basic dimensions of 45 Colt had been set, there was a lot of variation in rim sizes over the years. These are all old 45 Colt cartridges. Notice how tiny many of the rims are. Except for the cartridge second from the right, with the larger rim developed for the 1909 Colt double action revolver. It had a conventional extractor like most modern double action revolvers, so the rims were larger so the extractor would not slip over the tiny rims. One of my reloads on the right. Since rifles were never chambered for 45 Colt until modern times, the rims never needed to be big enough for a rifle extractor to grab.






Winchester developed the WCF (Winchester Center Fire) family of cartridges, 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20. Plus 30WCF (30-30). These were developed specifically as rifle cartridges, so they always had good sized rims on them for a rifle extractor to grab. Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 44-40, 38-40, and 32-20. Sorry, I did not have a 25-20 handy for this photo. These are all my reloads with modern brass.






Smith and Wesson developed the 32 S&W, 32 S&W Long, and 38 S&W (not 38 Special) cartridges specifically for their Top Break revolvers.

They also developed the 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, and 45 Schofield cartridges for their large frame Top Break revolvers. In the photo below, Smith and Wesson developed all the cartridges. Left to right, 44 S&W American, three versions of the 44 Russian, 44 Special and 44 Magnum. Winchester developed the 44 Magnum together with Remington.







Did you ever notice that every Smith and Wesson revolver chambered for the 38 Special is marked 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG on the barrel? That is because S&W developed the cartridge in 1898. Everybody else just calls it 38 Special, but S&W does not want anybody to forget they developed the cartridge. CTG just means Cartridge.






The same with 44 Special.






Left to right, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, designed by Smith and Wesson specifically for the Schofield Top Break revolver, 45 Cowboy Special developed by a fellow named Adirondack Jack for the Cowboy Action Shooting Crowd, 45 Auto Rim developed by Remington in the 1930s for the S&W and Colt Model 1917 revolvers to be fired without half moon clips, and the 45 ACP developed by John M. Browning for what became the Colt 1911 semi-auto pistol






These are just to name a few. So before SAAMI existed, the standards were either developed by individual firearms manufacturers, or the government.

Driftwood thanks for taking the time to give a lesson on this. It is always fun and informative for all of us.

Johnm1 said:

Although I don't mind swabbing the barrel after I shoot, do you think it would be worthwhile to put a greased wad below the bullet? It would reduce the load some I suppose.

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I tried all that years ago with standard hard cast bullets with skimpy lube grooves that I pan lubed with a 50/50 mix of Crisco/Beeswax. I was using a thin 'grease cookie' underneath the bullet to add BP compatible lube to the cartridge. I was putting a thin card between the grease cookie and the powder to prevent the grease from adulterating the powder. The grease cookie became 'glued' to the base of the bullet, making it ballistically unstable. It flew like lopsided dart, ruining accuracy. So then I added another card wad between the bullet and the grease cookie, to prevent the cookie from getting glued to the bullet. This worked pretty well, but loading the cartridges became ridiculously complicated. Dump in powder, add card, add grease cookie, add card, seat and crimp bullet. About that time I found the Big Lube bullets and never added all that extra stuff again. Dump in powder, seat and crimp bullet, compressing the powder between 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet was seated.

Done.

Have not added anything extra to the cartridge since, except with my 45-70 rounds. I do add a card wad between powder and bullet for those, but I am looking for maximum accuracy out to about 200 yards in a rifle.

Howdy

Just so you know, I usually load all my large caliber Black Powder rounds with Federal Large Pistol primers. Primers should seat slightly sub flush. Off the top of my head I seem to remember around .003 or so sub flush. I only use an RCBS primer seating tool with my 45-70 rounds. Otherwise I seat all my primers on one of my Hornady Lock & Load AP Progressive presses. I do not recall any problem. Attempting to seat primers further than needed will probably flatten them out a bit. Notice that before they are seated primer cups have a slight convex curve. Seating them further than necessary will tend to flatten them a bit. What happens when you seat a primer is you are compressing the priming material slightly between the anvil and the cup. If you apply a little bit more pressure to seat the primer deeper, what you are actually doing is driving the cup down a little bit deeper into the primer pocket, compressing the priming material a little bit more. Not usually a problem, but it is unnecessary.

Just guessing, if all your primers show the same off center hit, your firing pin is striking them slightly off center.

This is the hammer of my Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army. Notice the firing pin is an integral part of the hammer, it is not a separate part pinned in place like on a Colt. I'm guessing your revolver has a similar arrangement. The firing pins for all the antique Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers are the same way, an integral part of the hammer. One has to be a bit careful, over time this type of firing pin can get bent out of shape. They can also break off, then you have to find a really good welder to weld more metal back onto the hammer and the new firing pin has to be shaped by hand with files.






There is a hole in the frame where the firing pin pokes through. At first I was thinking your firing pin might be bent, causing the off center strikes. But if there is a hole like this in the frame, a bent firing pin would probably not find its way through the hole. Of course with an old revolver, anything is possible. The frame may be distorted in some way, causing the hole in the frame, and/or the firing pin to strike the primers off center.






I suggest you seat a couple of new primers in empty cases and drop the hammer on them. No powder or bullet, just primers in fresh cases. See what happens. Are the firing pin strikes off center as in your fired rounds? By the way, without any recoil to reseat the primers, they will back out of the cases when they pop. This may tend to bind the gun a bit. So just fire one primer at a time, do not try to load and fire several. Anyway, see if you can figure out why your primers are being struck off center. Also, check to see the condition of the frame. Is there a hole for the firing pin to poke through? What is its condition? Is it distorted in any way? A bent firing pin could possibly reshape the hole in the frame, allowing off center strikes.

Bottom line, I wouldn't really worry about it too much. After all, your off center strikes will only be striking brass, not steel. As long as the primer pockets are not being damaged, I would not worry about it too much.

What brand dies are you using to load your 44-40 rounds? I use an old set of RCBS dies. Don't forget to lube your brass, there are no carbide dies for 44-40, you must lube your brass so it does not get stuck in the sizing/decap die. I use Hornady One shot spray case lube for all my 44-40 and 38-40 brass. Don't use too much, a little dab will do ya. Too much case lube will leave small drops of lube on your brass that can cause dents when they are squeezed in the die.I usually load about 200 rounds at a time with 44-40 or 38-40. I place all my brass upside down in a loading block like this and give them a quick spray. I do this before I set up my press, so by the time I am ready to start loading the lube has all dried.






A close up of one of my 44-40 rounds in front and a 38-40 round behind it. I usually like to use a Lee Factory Crimp Die for these cartridges. I first seat the bullets with the conventional seating crimp die, but then I make the crimp with the Lee FCD. Notice the Lee die does not really make a true roll crimp. 44-40 and 38-40 brass is very thin at the case mouth, only about .007 thick or so. The slight ring at the case mouths is caused as the Lee FCD compresses the brass to form the crimp. It is not really a roll crimp, the die has a collet inside that squeezes the brass concentrically. The brass is so thin, that the die does not really form a conventional crimp, instead the brass is sort of smooshed into the crimp groove of the bullet. By the way, these are each Big Lube bullets, and the lead is quite soft. Also, by the way, a lot of guys will tell you 44-40 is difficult to load. It is not, but because the brass is so thin, extra care needs to be taken. I run my press quite slowly when making 44-40 or 38-40 rounds. If a case is slightly out of kilter in the shell plate and happens to strike the bottom of the resize/decap die on its way up, the case mouth will probably crumple and the case will be ruined. So I run slow so if I feel a case contact the bottom of the die I can stop the stroke immediately without ruining the piece of brass. 45 Colt has much thicker brass at the case mouth, usually around .012 thick. A piece of 45 Colt brass will shrug off the same blow that would probably ruin a piece of 44-40 brass.






Yeah, don't sweat some soot at the front of the cylinder. Depending on how wide your barrel/cylinder gap is, there might be a lot of soot being blasted out of the gap. It tends to accumulate at the front of the cylinder and in the flutes. Don't worry about it, it will wipe right off with a damp rag.



Regarding your rounds shooting high, it all has to do with how tall your front sight is, As you probably know, the taller the front sight is, that causes you to aim with the barrel pointed further down. Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers all have a very short front sight. This causes them to shoot high. Most of my Top Break Smiths are chambered for 44 Russian, which develops less recoil than a 44-40. Even so, when I shoot a CAS match with them I have to remember to hold low or I may shoot right over the target.

I took this photo at the end of a CAS match with my Merwin Hulbert. First, notice how low the front sight is. So I have to hold low on the targets or I will shoot right over them. Second, notice all the soot in front of the cylinder. I took this photo before I cleaned the revolver. It has a very wide barrel/cylinder gap, and it lets a lot of soot out of the b/c gap. This particular style of cylinder flute is called a Scoop Flute because of its shape. So not a lot of soot got into the flutes because of the shape.






Notice how much taller the front sight is on this Colt at the top of the photo than the S&W Schofield at the bottom of the photo. I do not have to hold low with the Colt, even with a full load of about 35 grains of FFg under a 250 grain bullet, the tall front sight makes the shooter point the muzzle down slightly as he is aiming. Of course, the muzzle rises before the bullet leaves the barrel, but the initial aim point will keep the shot from rising too high. Notice how much lower the front sight is on the S&W Schofield at the bottom of the photo. I have to take care to hold low, or the shot may go right over the target.






Early in the day at a CAS match, both pistols are still nice and clean. The pistol at the top is a Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three. Notice how low the front sight is. This one is chambered for 44 Russian, and yes, I have to remember to hold low with it. Even though I load the exact same 200 grain bullet into both my 44-40 and 44 Russian loads, the 44 Russian case is considerably smaller and does not hold as much powder as a 44-40. So 44 Russian generates significantly less recoil than 44-40 in a revolver. Even so, with that short front sight on the NM#3, if I forget to hold low, it will sometimes shoot right over the top of the target. I never hold low with a Colt, I put a Six O'Clock hold exactly where I want the bullet to go. If I do that with either of these revolvers, the bullet may go right over the target.