As one really fills cases with black powder such that the case is full and 1/16" to 1/8" more filled than the depth of the bullet when seated, and would vary by the thickness of the grease cookie as well, does it really matter that one might use 70 grains of black powder to fill a .50-70 Government round? And that could vary. It seems to me just as long as there is no void and I like to hear the powder crunch as I hold my ear near the case when seating the bullet, couldn't one just take a case and scoop it up such that it is filled to the appropriate depth and not even split hairs about how many grains of powder used?
Black powder volume question
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Jackrabbit1957
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That's kinda what I do.
PWC
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BP is measured by volume. BP measures are marked for the correct volume of commercial BP per setting. Follow the firearms recommendation. If you want to measure by weight, take the recommended load by volume and weigh it. They won't be the same. When you experiment, keep track of the weight/volume and when you are happy with the charge, make yourself a custom volume measure from some sub caliber cartridge case from what you are shooting (it will pour into your barrel/cylinder easier).
By the way, if you have an old Lyman 55 powder measure, the scale is marked for BP, not smokeless. That's why it is only for reference when setting up smokeless; use a scale/powder balance to set it up for smokeless.
By the way, if you have an old Lyman 55 powder measure, the scale is marked for BP, not smokeless. That's why it is only for reference when setting up smokeless; use a scale/powder balance to set it up for smokeless.
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Armored farmer
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Volume is volume, no matter the measuring spoon.
Okay that's what I basically do and don't split hairs, but I was asked this question by someone else and my ways are not kosher. In fact, some spouts I have, I am not even sure of the volume, so it's a guess. Why the volume in grains isn't stamped on the side at manufacture is a mystery.
Cowhide Cliff
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I've found that many times the grains marked on them aren't accurate anyway. Most are close but some are not even that.
PWC
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BP is measured in drams; 1 dram = 27.36 grns. Next time you pick up a box of shotgun shells look at the charge. It will have the shell length, shot size and weight in oz and the charge in "Dram equivilent".
.38 Special
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My BP "measure" for the .38 short is just an old 38 short case. I filled the case to the point that the bullet would compress the charge, then cut the case off at that level. I soldered a length of wire to the shortened case so that I can use it as a dipper. I still have no clue how much the charge actually weighs.
Malachi Leviticus Blue
Member
If the measure is accurate and you are measuring real black powder then weighing it will be the same (within the margin of error)
The only time there will be a significant difference is if you are measuring a substitute powder or when the volume measure is mislabeled.
Black Powder measurement is based on weight, and the volume method is simply for convenience when the volume of the given weight is known.
Armored farmer
Member
Because they are meant to be sawed off to your desired amount.
arcticap
Member
If the cartridge case gets black powder dust on it from dipping it into the powder, does it end up accumulating on the inside of the seating die?
Not if you wipe it off.
This is why black powder reloading, or the results thereof, is inherently safer than smokeless powder reloading. With smokeless powder reloading, there is the risk of weighing powder improperly, or even a double charge, depending on the load. With black powder, overcharging is impossible as the goal is to fill as much as possible and compress the powder when one seats a bullet.
arcticap
Member
That's why I asked.
By not using something besides the cartridge case as a scoop, it could create the need for the extra step of either: 1] needing to wipe off each case or 2] needing to clean BP residue out from inside of the die
It would seem easier to simply use a separate scoop, and maybe a funnel, even if it's a home made paper funnel.
Scooping up a more uniform powder charge would be a side benefit.
It may be possible to save a few grains of powder with each case full.
Which is preferable, more powder compression, less powder compression, or consistent powder compression and powder charges?
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Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
So many bizarre answers.
First off, not all Black Powder weighs the same. So using a volumetric measuring device the actual weight of powder delivered will vary, depending on what brand and obviously granulation you choose. I made this chart up years ago to chart the actual weight of some of the Black Powder charges that I use most often. Notice the column on the left lists Lee Dipper Sizes in Cubic Centimeters. More on that in a moment. Notice for instance that the charge that I use most often in 45 Colt and 44-40, 2.2CC, varies significantly by weight with Goex FFg, Elephant FFg (no longer available) and Schuetzen FFg. Elephant was heavy stuff. By the way, that 4.3CC charge is what I use most often in 12 gauge shotgun shells.
Next, I cannot imagine dredging an actual case that I am going to load through a pile of powder to charge it with powder. Believe it or not, there are more variables than one might realize. The technique one uses to scoop powder will significantly determine the shot to shot consistency of the charges. Frankly, a long narrow 'dipper' such as a 45-70 or 50-70 cartridge is far from ideal in shape for scooping powder. How narrow it is compared to how deep will significantly impede powder from packing in consistently from charge to charge.
That is why I was talking about Lee dippers. Here are a few of my most often used Lee dippers. Notice they are not long and thin, they are fat and not very deep. Much more conducive to getting consistent scoops of powder from charge to charge. Also pictured are a couple of custom dippers I made up years ago. The big one was made from a standard 44 Magnum shell, the little one is a cut down piece of 44 Russian brass. I soldered a piece of brass wire on for a handle. Lee dippers are a very inexpensive, and much more effective way to measure out powder than trying to scoop it directly into a shell you are loading. The whole set is cheap, I just checked and Lee lists the set for $12.98. You might be able to find a better price elsewhere. One caution when using Lee dippers. The set comes with a slide rule showing how much of XXX powder each dipper will dip out. Remember what I said about different Black Powders weighing different amounts? Forget the slide rule, dip out a few charges and weigh them yourself. That is how you determine exactly what each dipper portions out for any specific brand and granulation of powder.
When is the last time you bought a box of shotgun shells that actually listed the dram equivalency on the box? These days fewer and fewer companies are listing Dram Equivalency on the box of shells. Many are just listing velocity and do not list Dram Equivalency any more. What is a Dram? There are 16 ounces to a pound, and 16 drams to an ounce. Doing the math, 7000 grains per pound, divided by 16 equals 437.5 grains to an ounce, and 27.34375 grains to a Dram. Round it off to 27.3 grains per dram. Dram Equivalency in a shotgun shell refers to the velocity achieved by a given weight of shot. A Smokeless 2 3/4 Dram Equiv load will deliver the same velocity that 2 3/4 drams 75.1953125 (call it 75 grains for simplicity's sake) grains of Black Powder would achieve with the same weight of shot.
The only reason shotgun shells are referred to by drams of powder is because it is a bigger unit than grains.
Not really true. Technique has a great deal to do with portioning out consistent charges of powder. If I am going to dip out some charges, as for these 38-40 cases, I will pour about 1/2 pound of powder into a ceramic cup. Then I dredge the scoop through the powder just the same way one scoops out ice cream. I will be sure to use a consistent stroke for every charge. I use the piece of card stock to scrape off the extra powder piled up in the dipper. I do not shake it, and I do not use the entire heaped up charge. I scrape off the extra with the card before using the funnel to pour each charge into a case. That is how I ensure maximum consistency from charge to charge with dippers.
Again, not really. Remember what I said about different brands of powder weighing different amounts. The hash marks on a powder measure like this are only a rough guide to how much powder it is actually measuring out.
I do most of my Black Powder Cartridge loading on Hornady Lock and Load progressive press with a Lyman Black Powder measure attached.
The Lyman Black Powder measure uses the same rotors that the standard old Lyman 55 Smokeless powder measures used. My goodness, look at that. This one is set to deliver the correct amount for my 45 Colt and 44-40 Black Powder cartridges.
I buy old Lyman 55 Powder Measures whenever I find them used on the white elephant table at a gun show. Then I set the rotors to deliver the amount of powder I want for the particular cartridge I am loading. I keep each rotor set up for specific cartridges, and pop them in and out of the Black Powder measure on my Hornady press as needed. Yes, to determine the actual amount of powder each measure is throwing, I throw a few charges and weigh them. That tells me what the charge weight is that each rotor is throwing for each specific brand and granulation of powder I am using. I have simplified things recently and only use Schuetzen FFg for everything.
Lastly, as with any powder measure, consistency is the key. The Lyman Black Powder measure on my press is hand operated, it is not driven by the mechanism of the press. I always strive to throw the lever with the same force for each charge, to dole out as consistent a charge of powder each time as possible.
So many bizarre answers.
First off, not all Black Powder weighs the same. So using a volumetric measuring device the actual weight of powder delivered will vary, depending on what brand and obviously granulation you choose. I made this chart up years ago to chart the actual weight of some of the Black Powder charges that I use most often. Notice the column on the left lists Lee Dipper Sizes in Cubic Centimeters. More on that in a moment. Notice for instance that the charge that I use most often in 45 Colt and 44-40, 2.2CC, varies significantly by weight with Goex FFg, Elephant FFg (no longer available) and Schuetzen FFg. Elephant was heavy stuff. By the way, that 4.3CC charge is what I use most often in 12 gauge shotgun shells.
Next, I cannot imagine dredging an actual case that I am going to load through a pile of powder to charge it with powder. Believe it or not, there are more variables than one might realize. The technique one uses to scoop powder will significantly determine the shot to shot consistency of the charges. Frankly, a long narrow 'dipper' such as a 45-70 or 50-70 cartridge is far from ideal in shape for scooping powder. How narrow it is compared to how deep will significantly impede powder from packing in consistently from charge to charge.
That is why I was talking about Lee dippers. Here are a few of my most often used Lee dippers. Notice they are not long and thin, they are fat and not very deep. Much more conducive to getting consistent scoops of powder from charge to charge. Also pictured are a couple of custom dippers I made up years ago. The big one was made from a standard 44 Magnum shell, the little one is a cut down piece of 44 Russian brass. I soldered a piece of brass wire on for a handle. Lee dippers are a very inexpensive, and much more effective way to measure out powder than trying to scoop it directly into a shell you are loading. The whole set is cheap, I just checked and Lee lists the set for $12.98. You might be able to find a better price elsewhere. One caution when using Lee dippers. The set comes with a slide rule showing how much of XXX powder each dipper will dip out. Remember what I said about different Black Powders weighing different amounts? Forget the slide rule, dip out a few charges and weigh them yourself. That is how you determine exactly what each dipper portions out for any specific brand and granulation of powder.
When is the last time you bought a box of shotgun shells that actually listed the dram equivalency on the box? These days fewer and fewer companies are listing Dram Equivalency on the box of shells. Many are just listing velocity and do not list Dram Equivalency any more. What is a Dram? There are 16 ounces to a pound, and 16 drams to an ounce. Doing the math, 7000 grains per pound, divided by 16 equals 437.5 grains to an ounce, and 27.34375 grains to a Dram. Round it off to 27.3 grains per dram. Dram Equivalency in a shotgun shell refers to the velocity achieved by a given weight of shot. A Smokeless 2 3/4 Dram Equiv load will deliver the same velocity that 2 3/4 drams 75.1953125 (call it 75 grains for simplicity's sake) grains of Black Powder would achieve with the same weight of shot.
The only reason shotgun shells are referred to by drams of powder is because it is a bigger unit than grains.
Not really true. Technique has a great deal to do with portioning out consistent charges of powder. If I am going to dip out some charges, as for these 38-40 cases, I will pour about 1/2 pound of powder into a ceramic cup. Then I dredge the scoop through the powder just the same way one scoops out ice cream. I will be sure to use a consistent stroke for every charge. I use the piece of card stock to scrape off the extra powder piled up in the dipper. I do not shake it, and I do not use the entire heaped up charge. I scrape off the extra with the card before using the funnel to pour each charge into a case. That is how I ensure maximum consistency from charge to charge with dippers.
Again, not really. Remember what I said about different brands of powder weighing different amounts. The hash marks on a powder measure like this are only a rough guide to how much powder it is actually measuring out.
I do most of my Black Powder Cartridge loading on Hornady Lock and Load progressive press with a Lyman Black Powder measure attached.
The Lyman Black Powder measure uses the same rotors that the standard old Lyman 55 Smokeless powder measures used. My goodness, look at that. This one is set to deliver the correct amount for my 45 Colt and 44-40 Black Powder cartridges.
I buy old Lyman 55 Powder Measures whenever I find them used on the white elephant table at a gun show. Then I set the rotors to deliver the amount of powder I want for the particular cartridge I am loading. I keep each rotor set up for specific cartridges, and pop them in and out of the Black Powder measure on my Hornady press as needed. Yes, to determine the actual amount of powder each measure is throwing, I throw a few charges and weigh them. That tells me what the charge weight is that each rotor is throwing for each specific brand and granulation of powder I am using. I have simplified things recently and only use Schuetzen FFg for everything.
Lastly, as with any powder measure, consistency is the key. The Lyman Black Powder measure on my press is hand operated, it is not driven by the mechanism of the press. I always strive to throw the lever with the same force for each charge, to dole out as consistent a charge of powder each time as possible.
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PWC
Member
Driftwood Johnson- nicely written, I believe we are in complete agreement...my version was the Readers Digest version, yours was the unabridged version.
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