Ethics of killing animals and their status as Game vs Predators vs Fur-bearing vs Varmint/Pest.

Status
Not open for further replies.
...a moral compass...

It’s like a dog chasing it’s tail at that point. :)

eth·ics
/ˈeTHiks/

noun
  1. 1.
    moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.

mor·al
/ˈmôrəl/

adjective
  1. 1.
    concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

What’s right, following the law? The law can be wrong, do what’s right. Ok, what’s right? What I think is right. Ok, is killing an animal right? Only if you need to. Yeah, I agree, that’s why I don’t kill things, all my meat comes from the store...(smack) what was that? Dam mosquito! Why did you kill it? It was bothering me...

:)
 
Last edited:
This is simple. Everything dies. This is proven. So do you want to go out peacefully? Or in extreme agony? I have seen both in humans and animals. I dont kill anything that doesn't need to be taken care of. Spiders get a pass unless poisonous. Same for snake's. We have spiders living un our house. We name then. Them eat bug's. What we consider pests. Snake's eat mice and rats. What we consider pests. Opossums get a pass. They are cool animals in my eyes. Coons well if they stay out of the trash and dont try to live in our Attic. They get a pass. I hear coyote dont see them much in the burbs. And Im not shooting one with my pellet rifle. Out in fhe woods they are fair game. Given I have a good shot on them. We try to live and let live. Until something becomes a problem. Then it's raid or pellet time.
 
The coyote doesn't know he's a pest. I'll take more liberty in my method for pests than game animals, but not in the amount of suffering the individual animal endures. I try to eradicate rats and coyotes, I'll hunt an antelope and not shoot more than I can harvest. I'm not going to take out a dozen antelope out of a herd even if I had tags for that many because I can't process all of them myself without spoilage. I'll shoot every coyote I legally can, but I'll strive to make good heart/lung shots and any gut shot will be entirely accidental.

Cockroaches and fleas don't know they're pests, either, so that argument loses some validity, once you're dealing with invasive or pest animals.

As to MCB's question "What is considered a game animal ?" This is clearly outlined, state by state, in each state's particular hunting regulations. On the bald assumption we all obey the Law, Game Animals are all clearly outlined for us.

As to the topic, the only difference, for me, is with a non-game animal, I am willing to take a far chancier shot, in order to bring the animal down. In the event the animal is only wounded, the same due diligence afforded any game animal is made, in order to end any needless suffering.

What about "bolting" Canada Geese for instance ? These animals create a health hazard, in parks, and crowded towns, and cities, with their unkempt and unremoved fecal matter.. My point is, most of the folks blathering on, about how "killing them is inhumane", would be bolting the geese, themselves, if they had to follow around after a flock, picking up after them, for a few days. My point with the geese is, it's easy to sit back in SJW mode, and crow "That's inhumane !", yet far harder to be pro-active, and do something about the problem, or even be aware of the situation, of the person in the exterminator's shoes.
 
Last edited:
Cockroaches and fleas don't know they're pests, either, so that argument loses some validity, once you're dealing with invasive or pest animals.

As to MCB's question "What is considered a game animal ?" This is clearly outlined, state by state, in each states particular hunting regulations. On the bald assumption we all obey the Law, Game Animals are all clearly outlined for us.
Got no issue killing cockroaches, but I also would not deliberate injure a cockroach and then leave it to die slowly.

But what defines a Game Animal? State hunting regulations list the animals that they have deemed are game animals but does not give us the reasons/definition why they are listed as such. Is it because it is a common source of meat? Is it because its a desired trophy? another reason? There are animals that are a game animal in one state with a limited season duration, daily limits and possession limits and the same critter a few states away is considered a pest with no close season and no limits on how many you can kill.
 
Last edited:
Cockroaches and fleas don't know they're pests, either, so that argument loses some validity, once you're dealing with invasive or pest animals.

I'm not sure why you think that argument loses validity for cockroaches and fleas. I don't torture cockroaches or fleas any more than I torture coyotes or antelope. I kill a greater percentage of the cockroaches, fleas, and coyotes I see, but I don't take pleasure in seeing a cockroach suffer.

I don't know what "bolting" a goose means, but if geese are pests in certain places, then they need to be eradicated in those places. I don't worship animals or animal life. I don't think pests that need to be eradicated need to be tortured though. Perhaps the reasons for some folk's objection to "bolting" can be passed along?
 
Last edited:
Doesn't matter, "why" it's listed as a game animal, the Law is the Law, which we all have to follow.
I would not want to be stuck, arguing game law semantics and practical utility, with a judge. So it boils down to
'whatever the Law says, in your state".

In some states, given the proper circumstances, you can file for, l and receive, under the proper conditions,
"predation permits", and the like, which allow you to treat game animals as nuisance animals, and hunt them as such. I would highly advise you acquire these permits in advance, as judges don't smile upon those who seek forgiveness, rather than asking permission.

"Bolting" and objections, Canada Geese, observed and beloved, by many, are creating a downright health hazard, with their feces, much like any neighborhood where animal owners don't pick up, after their dogs. Some townships, nationwide, are trying to discourage flocks of Canada Geese from sullying their park picnic and public recreation areas, with their blessed effluents. One of the more effective manners of dispatching these geese, quickly and humanely, is to fire a small bolt into their forehead, at close range, killing them instantly.

Well a bunch of Karens, who saw Fly Away Home, one time too many, and a bunch of activists, who, when it comes down to actual conservation efforts, couldn't corral a beer-fart in a whirl-wind, started a major outcry, when they heard these "poor animals"
were being "mistreated'. Now, these folks want to be heard, and considered, but when the time comes to actually DO something about the Canada Geese problem, do they want these geese landing in THEIR backyard? Do they want to be bothered, to clean up the mess these geese create ?

Anybody ?

OH, how about you, in the back, with the red dress ?
 
Last edited:
Any living thing you intend to kill deserves a quick clean kill.

Doesn’t matter if it’s a blade of grass a tree a game animal or the worst human being on the planet earth.

This isn’t me saying I’m better than everybody because I have definitely taken my share of crappy shots and lead to animals dying slowly. I don’t think anybody is perfect and I do think there are some situations where are you can do everything right and still come up with the wrong result “ you can commit no mistakes and still lose that is not a weakness that is life“ But we should continue to make a few mistakes as possible.
 
Last edited:
I will absolutely agree with that sentiment with the caveat of "don't intentionally hurt it." I have unfortunately made a bad shot on a few animals, mostly birds or small game like squirrels, that definately caused the animal pain but that was certainly not my intention.



To me those are two completely different questions. It's not sporting to use (insert gadget, lure, or whatever you don't like that some hunters do) but that does not mean that it isn't ethical. I personally don't find it sporting to hunt deer over bait but as long as the person doing it is selective and kills the animals as humanely as possible then it is ethical.
Agreed.
 
I am guilty of filleting thousands of live fish with not a moment of guilt.
To each their own, id rather deal with them at the end of the day.....
course I also dont feel guilty about carrying them around in my back pack if Im out whipping, and dont HAVE a cooler, so i cant say its really a major issue for me.
I also usually transfer small fish i shoot while diving straight to my stringer, cooler, or tee, simply because trying to KILL them if they arnt dead already damages the fish and is likely to get you stabbed.

Equally theres a number of fish ill kill while diving because they are an invasive predator, and too ciguatera laden to eat.
I could just gut shoot them, rip the spear out and use em for chum, which i do anyway, but if i dont stone them with rhe shot ill brain them before tearing them apart......so perhaps my limit on fish is mutilation while alive.

Im also an aquaculturist.....we do some awful stuff.....so again, to each their own.
 
I sometimes use little fish, worms, frogs, etc. to catch big fish. I torture them all first. Impale them with hooks and hope their struggle to get free will attract a large fish that will eat them alive. I find it relaxing and a great way to pass the time with family and friends. Kids can't get enough of it.
 
Since this is a thread in a Hunting sub-forum on a gun forum, I'm guessing the question is more about our ethics when it comes to killing something with a gun. Not about how many microscopic amebas and dust mites we crush as we walk. Most of us here hunt for sport......not for subsistence. Subsistence and living or dying by what we kill takes away the sport, and leads to methods that are not always what is considered sporting. While there are many here that swear they hunt for the meat, other than Chip(Caribou), my bet would be like me, the rest of us could live pretty high on the hog(pun intended) on the monies we spend on sport hunting. As I said earlier, as sport hunters, we should always strive for that quick and humane kill, Every one of God's creatures deserves that. We all know it does not happen. But the human in us should still strive for it. Feeling bad because we made a poor shot and an animal suffered does not make us a Karen. Makes us human.


Intelligence, a moral compass and a pair of balls. Those lacking in one or more tend to be, at best, blind followers. They are easy to spot lately, often seen walking their dogs or driving down the highway wearing a face diaper.

Some will say it's the intelligent folks with moral compasses that wear the face diapers. They are smart enough to grasp the concept of protecting themselves and others and being considerate/respectful to those around them. A pair of balls has nuttin' to do with it. Lots of women hunters out there with superior hunting skills and ethics than many men here.
 
Some will say it's the intelligent folks with moral compasses that wear the face diapers.
And I support their right to do so.
A pair of balls has nuttin' to do with it.
have a pair
vulgar slang To act or behave in a strong, confident, and/or courageous manner. The phrase is short for "have a pair of testicles/balls," but is not exclusively said of a male.
 
Well, I can't speak for any other person but myself..., I can relate lessons learned from my father, and I can relate what I've tried to teach my offspring.

One side argues that some animals, typically Game animals, require/deserve a higher level of care and effort when being harvested that they are killed quickly and humanely. Conversely some animals deemed Varmints, Pests, and/or invasive species did not warrant the same level of care in their harvest and taking shots with a lower percentage chance of being a quick and human kill was more acceptable due to that status.

Another side argues that if you are going to intentionally kill an animal then it should receive a quick and humane kill independent of such labels as Game, Predators, Varmint/Pest etc.

For myself, I understand how some folks look upon varmints as pests, not deserving of respect. Since those people are not "hunting" on my land, but are on another's land, albeit where they have permission OR the land that they own, they are free to make that distinction.

I for one will do my best when I pull a trigger, to cleanly harvest whatever animal I am shooting at. I am not looking to inflict pain over a period of time on such an animal. I get no pleasure of seeing such suffering, nor of imagining such. The idea of the infliction of a long, lingering wound simply makes me feel bad, and since I can do my best to choose a method that is not intended to inflict such a wound, this is what I choose. Being the cause of an animal suffering does no actual "good" in the world, while harvesting a game animal in a quick, humane manner provides me with nourishment, or others with nourishment when I share what I have harvested, as well as controls the population which ensures the species will continue to thrive.

Sport hunting also provides some economic input and thus others benefit beyond when I share game. The ammunition component maker, the gun maker, the DNR employee, and funds that some part of my license fees feed, all benefit. Although this paragraph would also be true for the person who does not agree with my distinction, so this is not a benefit purely from those of my way of thinking.

Killing a non-game animal in a quick, humane manner, helps me to maintain my shooting skill, and provides a food source for scavenger species, which are part of the same ecosystem that sustains my game animals, and also keeps the varments/pests in check, which ultimately, actually helps them too, for the same reasons it helps game animals.

When it comes to pure pests, again, I don't like an eradication method that does not kill quick. I don't like poison, nor drowning, nor "sticky traps" for rodents like mice and rats and moles and gophers. I prefer the trap which kills quite quick. For groundhogs I prefer the rifle to poison, or even a Rodenator tool, which kills quick, rather than poison.

There are exceptions to some rules, so I cannot say that my situation will never change, nor that I will avoid problems where the solution is likely to be other than what I currently write. Although I will not hesitate to end a feral animal on public land set aside for hunting, I confess I do not worry nor search hard for the animal if it makes its escape while being wounded, while for a game animal I am quite diligent on the odd times when this has happened. For another example, had I a farm where a feral hog population, or even a javalina game population were ravaging my crops..., I could be brought to the use of bait, tannerite, and ball bearings to bring down their numbers in an explosive moment. While the idea is to end all that would be hit in a quick manner...., it would likely mean some escaped with bad wounds.

Also interesting is who defines what animals fit under the various labels like Game, Predators, Fur-bearing, Varmint/Pest? I am sure we can probably even come up of a few examples of animals that are considered Game animal in some parts of the country but Varmint/Pest in other parts, even setting invasive species aside.

This is quite true, even for something like the Gray Squirrel. There is a season for squirrels in my state, but one does not need a hunting license to kill one or more who have decided to nest in one's attic, nor does one need to wait for hunting season, for example. The "Pest Control" companies do not need permission or a hunting license either, to eradicate squirrels.

So the person who harvests squirrels with quick clean trapping, in a suburban setting, is a poacher for taking game in an area where that is prohibited, OR is that person merely eradicating pests?

Some would argue that IF the person merely disposes of the squirrel in the garbage, then they are eliminating pests, but..., if one takes the trap-harvested squirrel (or air rifle harvested squirrel) and turns the squirrel into Brunswick stew..., they are poaching. I would question why does the manner of disposal of the rodent matter?

YET..., when one switches the topic animal to deer..., and one fellow can point to a great deal of damage done to his landscaped garden by the suburban deer, who are not hunted due to geography, so they are pests..., BUT IF the same fellow was to harvest those deer in his back yard with something...quiet...like a bow or a legally owned suppressed rifle, some would call that poaching. THEN the State turns around and sets aside a day when a company of marksmen with suppressed rifles will enter the local park, and harvest the deer herd, and the meat is then given to the homeless shelter, and this is considered good, but don't act and do that for even one deer that has wandered into your back yard from the park property adjacent to your own.....

LD
 
I have to say it's been a good thread.

I think if we are all honest with ourselves there is some line were we will compromise our aversion to causing/allowing a creature to suffer at our hand. That said my own aversion is often more for me than the animal. I do not find any joy in causing an animal undue suffering and I do not want to become the kind of person that does, at any level, or for any reason. So I do my best to never willfully cause something to suffer whether is be a large mammal like a deer or elk or an insignificant insect or anywhere in-between. But I am not so idealistic to not realize that my actions frequently leave lesser creatures behind to suffer. An action as simple as mowing the yard or brush-hogging a food plot leaves lots of insects, and no doubt the occasional rodent, reptiles or other small mammals to suffer after I do such a thing and I do not let that bother me. Like I said this is as much about what I expect from myself as it is a respect for the animal in question. There is no life without death and no doubt some suffering along with it. Despite this reality it doesn't mean I need to add willfully and unnecessarily to it and compromising who I am trying to be process.


That probably got a touch heavy there and has a huge dose of YMMV. I suspect there are only a few black and white areas here where we would all agree and a whole big area of grey were we might not. Interesting discussion none-the-less.
 
To some, Jack Kevorkian was a murderer to others he was a blessing.

I was against human euthanasia until my 97 y.o. grandmother decided she wanted to die. Crippling arthritis, deaf as a post and blind as a bat. No reading, TV, radio, conversations, bed-ridden with bed sores but with a mind sharp as a tack. Who would want to stay alive under those circumstances? She decided to starve herself to death. She refused to eat in the nursing home so they placed a stomach tube in and fed her through that. She actually jerked the tube out and constantly asked me, "How much longer, Bob? I couldn't do anything for her and I felt so sorry for her that I begged the doctor to put her in Hospice to end it. He said she was in too good a shape to do that. I would have prayed for Jack Kevorkian if he were available in Florida but they were busy prosecuting him in Michigan.

If I get like she was, I hope legal euthanasia is available.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top