What if an AK-47 chambered for the .223 Remington had existed in 1933?

The Final Countdown is highly beloved by Tomcat fans, so there are some super, super high res enhancements of all those scenes out on YT.

Note this is Part 1. Just keep watching to see more:

shoobe01 said:

The Final Countdown is highly beloved by Tomcat fans, so there are some super, super high res enhancements of all those scenes out on YT.

Note this is Part 1. Just keep watching to see more:

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Wow! Youre not kidding, that footage looks amazing!

Ah, VF84 Jolly Rogers- Best. Tail. Art. Ever. (Though VF1 was a close second).

Solomonson said:

What if the Axis got hold of a cheap/easy to produce design like the AK-47 when Lend/Lease began, near the beginning of the war?

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The Walther and Haenel versions of what would become the Stg44 were both submitted for testing in 1941. The project had to be hidden from Hitler, and was called the MP43 when finally adopted, because Hilter approved of the SMG for the same reasons the US adopted the .30 Carbine. Hitler found out, and once the cat was out of the bag, the name was changed to Stg 44.

CarJunkieLS1 said:

At the end of the war the Germans had the grandfather of the AK-47.

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See above; There were two major obstacles to getting them made however; Hitler himself, and by the time that was overcome (see above), diminishing production capacity.

Jim Watson said:

I read that the General Staff expected to be ready to START to conquer liebenstraum in 1945.

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Oh, Jim, that is a good one. The General Staff conquering Love's Dream. Perhaps you meant Lebensraum.

Martin Caidin was a local Character in the Gainesville FL area where he lived. We tried to get him to come to a Gainesville Speculative Fiction Society meeting but he never did (even though he lived only two blocks from where it was meeting). He owned or partly owned a JU-52 named Iron Annie that often lived at the Gainesville Regional Airport as well as other Florida Airfields. Seeing Iron Annie flying around was very neat, especially if someone were say making runs at it with a T6 Texan or SNJ and they did whatever it was that made one of the wing engines spew smoke as though it were being shot down. Caiden had about a begillion photos of him and the plane up at a local Resturaunt called "Skeeter's" "Home of the Big Biscuit" and sometimes ate there. He was for a while investigating ESP powers.

He told David Palmer ( Emergence author) that he did not know about Cyborg being turned into The Six Million Dollar Man TV show until checks started arriving.

He was one of those folks that make Florida a wonderous place.

-kBob

The simple answer to if we had a 5.56 mm round adopted in 1933 is that there would be more surplus brass to reload.

The only thing in 1933 that would have made things better for the US, the Soviets, and the Germans in the 1940s would be Germany picking a decent person as Chancellor instead of, you know...Hitler.

kBob said:

Martin Caidin was a local Character in the Gainesville FL area where he lived. We tried to get him to come to a Gainesville Speculative Fiction Society meeting but he never did (even though he lived only two blocks from where it was meeting). He owned or partly owned a JU-52 named Iron Annie that often lived at the Gainesville Regional Airport as well as other Florida Airfields. Seeing Iron Annie flying around was very neat, especially if someone were say making runs at it with a T6 Texan or SNJ and they did whatever it was that made one of the wing engines spew smoke as though it were being shot down. Caiden had about a begillion photos of him and the plane up at a local Resturaunt called "Skeeter's" "Home of the Big Biscuit" and sometimes ate there. He was for a while investigating ESP powers.

He told David Palmer ( Emergence author) that he did not know about Cyborg being turned into The Six Million Dollar Man TV show until checks started arriving.

He was one of those folks that make Florida a wonderous place.

-kBob

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Thank you for that story KBob. Back in the 70s, I tuned into a latenight talk show on tv with Tom Brokaw when Martin Caidin was a guest. He talked about flying a WW2 bomber once when he and crew spotted a UFO, and some work he was trying to support developing prosthetic devices for parapeligics. He appeared nearly bald with a big fuzzy mustache .... dressed a little like an escapee from a Hell's Angels group, I thought at the time. I have a good collection of his sf books still in my library. He was quite a character.

When I grew my first set of handle bars (currently trimmed) I was accused of trying to look like Caidin.

Back sort of on topic The French and even US played with the Remington Model 8 Browning designed semi auto and with with fixed magazines up to 15 rounds. A later company offered a 20 round fixed but as single stacks those were rather long. Loading was via five round stripper clips. The standard law enforcement only at the time 10 rounder was comfortable.

At eight pounds it was a bit lighter and 41 inches about 3 inches shorter than a Garand. No way on the standard model to mount a bayonet, and not a rifle I would like to do a full on bayonet fight with though.

The French during WWI and the US while researching Semi auto use and tactics around 1930 or so, they even used receiver peeps to see how they worked in the field on those rifles.

They were available in a .25 caliber ( 6.35 mm) model that used a case that was of smaller diameter than the .30 and up as well. While the typical 100-117 bullets loads ran around 2300 fps the hot loaded 87 grain rounds made 2700 fps

Oh and take a look at the safety on the Remington Model 8 all yea Klashni-fans.

-kBob

Here is another what if for you. Would 10worst and Almost American Casualties have been less on D-Day if they had a number of folks carrying Remington Model 8 rifles in their take down configuration in leg bags? Those that completed the jump with their rifle still with them might have shared a Remington # 8 with a weaponless buddy long enough to get other arms.

-kBob

CapnMac said:

The F-14 stall speed is going to be significantly above the range of the Zero's maximum speed.

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uhhhhh no. A tomcat stalls out at 132 MPH. the Zero could top 300MPH. I assume I misunderstood your meaning. Sorry, moderator, off topic ! Won't happen again.

I read that small arms caused 4% of the battle casualties inflicted by the American Military in WWII. Certainly not a war winner. As far as only 20% of the U.S. Infantry firing their weapons, I kind of find that hard to believe. In Viet Nam I don't remember anybody NOT shooting like Hell wouldn't have it. Fire superiority was stressed in training. Overwhelm the enemy with firepower.

If my grandma had a .223 AK and wings, in '33, would she have been an A-10?

I think it's at best an academic exercise because no matter who had it - if it proved itself significantly - it'd have been copied by the other side.

Look at the EPIC improvement in fighter aircraft and armor. If a pissy little gun was going to make a difference, it would have made a difference.

Such is the case of the varying powers recognizing that even if they gave something up in an apples-to-apples comparison, their weapon worked for their doctrine and TO&E.

Todd.

The Soviet Hind D attack/transport helicopter have a canvas covering for its tail; it was light, cheap and lets cannon rounds pass through without detonating.

Back to sheet metal works, there were a few "tube" guns that evolved into sheet metal;
The British Sten MII was further simplified from Tube to wrapped sheet steel, the MkIII was wrapped around a mandrel and welded along the top.
The German MP-40 , from the milled tube MP-38, was sheet wrapped around a mandrel and welded in the shortest places, along the seam of the cocking handle slot.
The Soviet PPSH-41 was sheet from the start, but the design inspiration was a simplified milled Degtarov. The PPS-43 was sheet from the start

The US M-3 "Grease gun" was stamped in 2 halves and welded.

These were all low pressure guns, of simple, unlocked design.
The real trick was mating a sheet metal "body" with a milled (strong) Trunnion to make a receiver that could take large amounts of barrel and lock pressure, heavy vibrations and yet be light and strong.

Shorter ,less powered cartridges at that time were not new, they were just not what the military expected to be usefull at long ranges.
The German military's tactics were developed and the weapons caught up, not the other way around. It wasnt untill mid WWII that shorter ranged cartridges that out performed pistol sized cartridges but didnt need full power were accepted.
If they had the AK in 5.56 in '33, they would have definitely loved the gun, but , like the US Military, it would have taken alot of "proving" to get the cartridge to even have a second glance given to it as a military round.