If shotguns were invented in 2021, would 20 gauge be the best gauge?
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rbernie
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It has been proven on dynamic patterning boards that the shape of the shot cloud has a meaningful affect on hit probability, and that shape is largely dictated by both bore diameter (including constriction) and the height of the shot column. You might want to educate yourself on the work that has been done by others before you form too many opinions. The Brister book that I linked above is a good place to start - seriously.
Then you might be well served to make more nuanced statements and comparisons. When you put out blanket statements that ignore practical reality (“there's not a single thing the 20 does better than the 12”), you should expect that people will react. The 20 recoils less, and can be chambered in smaller / lighter guns. You may not find that argument compelling, but it is truthful.
If throwing the most lead was the sole criteria for choosing a firearm, we would all be shooting howitzers; portability and recoil management are valid aspects of the choice in chambering. There’s a reason that squirrel hunters or varminters or precision long range shooters don’t shoot 375 H&H.
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I do a lot. Now I mostly hunt doves so you have more time to respond, but also walking terrain where you know birds aren’t likely to be found it is nice.
Lately I’ve gotten to almost exclusively hunt with the 20. I carry a 12 as a novelty and usually regret the weight if I walk far. My Benelli Nova 20 is the go-to because it is light enough, has sling mounts to make long walks easier, and if I feel undergunned I can pull out the 3 in shells (those hurt a bit, I will say). It’s also just ugly enough I don’t care about using it to scrape through brush and stupidly easy to clean. I have others (including it’s 12 gauge big brother) but somehow that little black plastic Italian gun goes.
20s are also nice for doves since you can carry more shells in the same space than a 12. For waterfowl or turkey though I’d go with a 12 still. Maybe take the 20 for teal if I had to hike a lot.
Cvans
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Good thing they make different gauges so we all can have what we like.
And just for the books I've never looked down my nose at anyone for carrying a 12ga and I doubt other 20ga. users have either. There are a lot of doubters out there though when it comes to the effectiveness of the 20ga.
Do these Chev. verses Ford discussions ever end with a final solution? Not in my lifetime.
And just for the books I've never looked down my nose at anyone for carrying a 12ga and I doubt other 20ga. users have either. There are a lot of doubters out there though when it comes to the effectiveness of the 20ga.
Do these Chev. verses Ford discussions ever end with a final solution? Not in my lifetime.
George P
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Smart aleck!You know what I just got......
I had a Doc friend of mine order a 3" custom SxS from Sabatti. He then had a company (I THINK they were in Wyoming) turn him some 3" brass hulls; he was going to load some 1-1/4oz loads for pheasant for that 16. beautiful gun, weighed like a 20 wouldI'm in the 16 gauge camp. If developed today, they would certainly have 3" or even 3.5" models available. They were unfortunately omitted from the rule books when they were written for skeet and trap. A shame, as had they been allowed to play, we certainly would have 3" 16's today. Of course the rule makers knew using a 16ga would be an unfair advantage
Rex in OTZ
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jrmiddleton425
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The earliest known fowling pieces were equivalent to a 20-gauge in bore size, but there were no conventional gauges as we know them today, until 1848, when the Shotgun Proof Act became law in the UK. Before that, what went in your black powder front-stuffer, was whatever was handy.
So I dare say that if today was "Day Zero" in shotgunning, it might still take us a couple of hundred years to get to "20 gauge."
So I dare say that if today was "Day Zero" in shotgunning, it might still take us a couple of hundred years to get to "20 gauge."
Uh huh, so basically nothing.
Read this and only this: Name one thing the 20 gauge cartridge does better. Not the platform that it's chambered for. Name. One. Thing
entropy
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As has been pointed out, the cartridges (shells) are an artifact of design. When the shell sizes were standardized, metallurgy was limited, and the only way reduce the size/weight of a gun for ease of carry was to make the shells smaller and thus, the whole gun. (Anybody remember the 20 gauges on 12 gauge frames? They were only made as economy models. Why tote a 7.5 or 8 pound gun all day when you can have near the same shot load (more so in 16 than 20, but it still applies) for upland hunting in a 5.5 or 6 pound gun? So the one thing it does better is lower the size/weight of the gun without significantly decreasing performance for upland game hunting. The trade off is more felt recoil and a little less payload.
Of, course, the 16 ga. is a better compromise, as most of Europe realized.
Of, course, the 16 ga. is a better compromise, as most of Europe realized.
entropy
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And the English made some of the lighter ones with 2 1/2" chambers also.
Random 8
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I'm bored tonight so I'll play and state my case, all the other comments of which I've read about half be darned! There really is no right answer, just opinions and I find the discussion interesting, as I will the replies, especially the ones I disagree with.
I think, if the shotgun were invented today, it wouldn't be a gauge at all, rather a bore diameter. I think it would approximate the 16 gauge in deference to the waterfowling market and the huge number of people that shoot 16 yard and handicap trap in the U.S. (but then that wouldn't exist without shotguns, so catch 22?) For arguments sake, we'll assume all the uses currently for the shotgun, and all the ammunition, choke, accessory, advancements occur simultaneously with the invention of the scattergun, and everything we know about patterning and wingshooting also occur simultaneously. Shorter shot columns simply throw better patterns per given weight. They are also driven to higher velocities with less pressure in larger diameters per given weight, using faster powders with lower, more efficient charges. Given modern ballistics and components, this could be accomplished in the 16 gauge range, whatever specific bore diameter the engineers settled on. You can fit a useful charge of steel shot (despite non-tox advancements, this is what the vast majority of duck shells still fire), and get a tight 1 1/8oz trap pattern in this bore diameter with rather efficient loads. I think something around 75 caliber would still exist for heavy waterfowl applications and turkeys where a heavier payload is desired. I think a lighter, purpose built upland gun of around 22-24 gauge would exist, and I don't think the .410 would ever be invented.
I think, if the shotgun were invented today, it wouldn't be a gauge at all, rather a bore diameter. I think it would approximate the 16 gauge in deference to the waterfowling market and the huge number of people that shoot 16 yard and handicap trap in the U.S. (but then that wouldn't exist without shotguns, so catch 22?) For arguments sake, we'll assume all the uses currently for the shotgun, and all the ammunition, choke, accessory, advancements occur simultaneously with the invention of the scattergun, and everything we know about patterning and wingshooting also occur simultaneously. Shorter shot columns simply throw better patterns per given weight. They are also driven to higher velocities with less pressure in larger diameters per given weight, using faster powders with lower, more efficient charges. Given modern ballistics and components, this could be accomplished in the 16 gauge range, whatever specific bore diameter the engineers settled on. You can fit a useful charge of steel shot (despite non-tox advancements, this is what the vast majority of duck shells still fire), and get a tight 1 1/8oz trap pattern in this bore diameter with rather efficient loads. I think something around 75 caliber would still exist for heavy waterfowl applications and turkeys where a heavier payload is desired. I think a lighter, purpose built upland gun of around 22-24 gauge would exist, and I don't think the .410 would ever be invented.
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DocRock
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An interesting and as yet unexplored question is, if the shotgun were invented today, would the BATFE deem a firearm that shoots a large number of projectiles at the same time legal and, if so, would it be allowed to exceed .50 caliber?
I have my doubts...
I have my doubts...
Rex in OTZ
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The 12 gauge and 16 gauge possibly have roots in our nations history?
The .75 cal British would have fuzzyed into the 12 gauge.
The .69 cal of the French musket would have been close to 16 gauge.
The Brown Bess is a nickname for the British Short Land Pattern Musket.[1] It was produced from 1725–1838. The Land Pattern, or more popularly known as the "Brown Bess", and its versions were all .75 caliber smoothbore flintlock muskets. They were the standard guns for all land forces in the British Empire.[2] It was one of the most important military firearms ever designed. It helped win the British Empire.
The Charleville muskets were .69 caliber French smoothbore flintlock muskets used in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Charleville was used during the American Revolutionary War by the Americans and was later copied and manufactured in the US as the Springfield Model 1795 Musket
The .75 cal British would have fuzzyed into the 12 gauge.
The .69 cal of the French musket would have been close to 16 gauge.
The Brown Bess is a nickname for the British Short Land Pattern Musket.[1] It was produced from 1725–1838. The Land Pattern, or more popularly known as the "Brown Bess", and its versions were all .75 caliber smoothbore flintlock muskets. They were the standard guns for all land forces in the British Empire.[2] It was one of the most important military firearms ever designed. It helped win the British Empire.
The Charleville muskets were .69 caliber French smoothbore flintlock muskets used in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Charleville was used during the American Revolutionary War by the Americans and was later copied and manufactured in the US as the Springfield Model 1795 Musket
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WestKentucky
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If shotguns were invented today then there would be no NFA classifications to allow for their existence over 50 caliber. SO, if shotguns were invented today the most effective would be 50 caliber.
jmorris
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I don’t think it would make much difference. Seems like there is a lot of reinventing the wheel in firearms.
Try and compare other devices from 100+ years ago to today and see how far firearms have come vs the others.
We went from cooking on a wood burning stove to being able to turn electricity into microwaves and cook food from the inside out.
We went from the model T a car you had to crank the engine over by hand to start to cars that can park and drive themselves.
We went from the 1911 to well the 1911...
Try and compare other devices from 100+ years ago to today and see how far firearms have come vs the others.
We went from cooking on a wood burning stove to being able to turn electricity into microwaves and cook food from the inside out.
We went from the model T a car you had to crank the engine over by hand to start to cars that can park and drive themselves.
We went from the 1911 to well the 1911...
George P
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Why? There are rifle cartridges over .50 that are perfectly legal to own without any NFA paperwork.
WestKentucky
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They have sporting exemptions. If a shotgun were invented TODAY then it would have to be less than or equal to 50 caliber and anything larger would have to be evaluated for an exemption. So if it were invented today, and by some stroke of genius someone went ahead and requested the exemption, then it would still be a few weeks worth of red tape and bureaucracy before the exemption came back, so for TODAY it would have to be .50 or smaller. Also, given modern attitude towards firearms it seems that it would be highly unlikely to be granted an exemption.
Rex in OTZ
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Limiting shotgun bore size to only .50 cal?
Why not regulate table spoons to a fixed arbitrary size like the smallest spoon?
How about thinking of it like this.
Home Depot and ACE Hardware can only sell the public one size of shovel?
Try digging out your drifted automobile?
Dig a post hole or a drainage trench?
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WestKentucky
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If they were invented today.... there could not be any legal classification for shotguns to exist in. They would have to fall under long guns or rifles or whatever they called that class of firearm. Legally, those are limited to 50 caliber unless they have a sporting exemption. So without a special class of weapon for that 12 guage to be in, where do they fall? Under long guns, and since bore diameter is greater than .50 they would be contraband until a class of weapon were legally made or it was given a sporting exemption.
By the way I agree with your logic but in a backwards way. Why are we limited to the size of the spoon stopping at a teaspoon when we are perfectly capable and responsible to eat with a tablespoon? If I want to rip my arm off with a .577 tyrannosaur then that’s my choice and since I have done nothing legally negligent or reckless to be prevented from using that spoon, gun, horsepower amount, then I should be allowed to do it. We are all being punished arbitrarily for bad actors a few generations ago... and I want to eat with a soup ladle and shoot an m2 and an m32
DocRock
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Firearm caliber size is regulated and restricted, so your post is just silly. Sporting arms, unless they receive and exemption, are restricted to .50 cal or less. Acknowledging the existence of a regulation does not necessarily entail its endorsement.
cdb1
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I’ve been trying to get spoon legislation passed pretty much my whole adult life to no avail.Why not regulate table spoons to a fixed arbitrary size like the smallest spoon?
Rex in OTZ
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Well from the shotgun gauge bore size 0.50" cal or less, Is the 410.
The 28 gauge is .545"
The 28 gauge is .545"
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