Thoughts on .32ACP pocket pistols

Mauser lover said:

LE in the USA generally selects ammo that penetrates 12-18 inches in what?

I can get a .32 to penetrate 12-18 inches, but what makes 9/10mm or .357/.40/.45 better is that it will penetrate that amount in some particular and repeatable medium that .32 won't.

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Heavy clothed gel.
Penetrate and consistently expand; the consistent expansion is where pocket 32 is going to have trouble.

jar said:

But I am not a LEO.

I will never be serving a warrant, making an arrest, responding to a domestic violence call. making a traffic stop or chasing a felon.

I will not be protecting property or upholding my honor or keeping face.

If I ever use a handgun in self defense it will be at BBD and only to protect myself or those immediately around me. My priority will be having something small and extremely controllable that allows me to place multiple shots on target in a short period of time even when under stress. I want something with the least possible risk of endangering anything other than the specific and immediate threat. It will be location, Location, LOCATION.

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I don't disagree with most of that.
At BBD (bad breath distance) stopping the threat(s) ASAP would be a priority, desirable to have bullets with greater incapacitation potential. (for me)
Lethal but non-cns hits (lungs/heart) will still allow for about 10 seconds of continued voluntary hostile action.
Larger holes in attacker(s) are desirable from the perspective of the defender.
9mm HST, Ranger, Golden Saber expands to .60 or more in heavy clothed gel, that is about 2x the diameter of 32 FMJ.
A better 9mm HP seems like a good minimum for ASAP incapacitation potential and ASAP is desirable regardless of location, anywhere/everywhere.

The 12 inch penetration minimum is based around Law Enforcement having to shoot an armed person thru their arm(s) and at an angle that isn't square to their torso. The belief is that if a bullet can penetrate 12 inches that means it should be able to go thru at least one arm, into the torso, and reach vitals.

The likelihood of any non-LEO in a defensive shooting having to shoot an attacker at any sort of angle other than square to their chest is low, thus the necessity of 12 inches of penetration is debatable. Now, I still like my 12 inches of penetration, but when it comes to a caliber under 9mm, you're making a sacrifice and that's giving up projectile weight and velocity for reduced pistol size and reduced recoil which can also mean reduced penetration, especially with a hollow point that expands.

The issue with .380, .32, and .25 ACP is they're generally not fast enough to get expansion from a short barrel. Now, .380 has made a lot of advances given the popularity of the pocket pistols, but they almost never penetrate 12 inches when they expand, but they do get close. The .32's have much less options for defense ammo, fewer that expand, and none penetrate 12 inches, but if you can find a .32 that does and can go 9+ inches, I don't see an issue with that, I don't see how a shot center mass isn't going to pierce the heart and not going to stop someone, whether it expands or not.

TTv2 said:

My thoughts on .32 ACP pocket pistols is if it's not an LCP or a Kel Tec, it's no good.

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There is a LCP in 32?

GooseGestapo said:

First of all, the Colts were VEST pocket pistols. Still an excellent way to carry them. Would love to have a 1903, but can’t justify the prices.

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The 1903 32 acp is a pocket hammerless (even though it has a hammer) the vest pocket is the 1908 25 acp.

I had a seecamp 32 back when I couldn't carry legally, when KS legalized CCW I decided I would always carry something bigger and sold it. It was an excellent performer. When I started missing it and decided to replace it, I couldn't justify the price of the seecamp and got a LCP, I'm not sure the 32 makes sense with the LCP and P38T.

mavracer said:

I had a seecamp 32 back when I couldn't carry legally, when KS legalized CCW I decided I would always carry something bigger and sold it. It was an excellent performer. When I started missing it and decided to replace it, I couldn't justify the price of the seecamp and got a LCP, I'm not sure the 32 makes sense with the LCP and P38T.

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I'd have several Ruger LCPs for the women in my family if Ruger made them in .32 ACP. Those women can't stand shooting .380 polymer pocket pistols or .38 Special snubbies, but they don't mind shooting my TCP732.

Same goes for a friend's wife that I know. She hates her LCP and doesn't practice with it. She will practice with a compact size single stack autoloader in 9mm, but she won't carry it due to size and weight.

I should've just bought several P32s, but cheap looking guns look like cheap looking guns to these women.

chicharrones said:

I'd have several Ruger LCPs for the women in my family if Ruger made them in .32 ACP. Those women can't stand shooting .380 polymer pocket pistols or .38 Special snubbies, but they don't mind shooting my TCP732.

Same goes for a friend's wife that I know. She hates her LCP and doesn't practice with it. She will practice with a compact size single stack autoloader in 9mm, but she won't carry it due to size and weight.

I should've just bought several P32s, but cheap looking guns look like cheap looking guns to these women.

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Valid point, I used the European Fioochi 60gr 1/2 jacket which in my seecamp was violent and had 200fps on domestic 32 Jhps.

mavracer said:

The 1903 32 acp is a pocket hammerless (even though it has a hammer) the vest pocket is the 1908 25 acp.

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There was some discussion of this about three pages back, in my post #36 of this thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...cp-pocket-pistols.880448/page-2#post-11761725

Basically, time has marched on, and the old definitions of pocket pistol and vest pocket pistols no longer fit the guns that are being produced today. Nor the pockets in the clothing of today, for that matter

Monac said:

Basically, time has marched on, and the old definitions of pocket pistol and vest pocket pistols no longer fit the guns that are being produced today.

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Thing is it's not a definition it's what Colt called them. So the 1903 Colt 32 ACP is a "Pocket Hammerless" and the 1908 Colt 25 ACP is a "Vest Pocket".
I don't care what you can actually fit in your pocket.

And the Walther PP 32 is still a "Polizeipistole" or Police Pistol regardless of what police carry today.

My favorite. This one is a good little shooter once you get past the heavy trigger. I was a bit puzzled by its appetite, it FTFs on everything except hardball. My other Astras eat everything. My 400 will feed empty cases out of the magazine. This pistol was part of a shipment to the Luftwaffe in 43. The pilots preferred the .32s over the 380s. The 380s had Nazi markings stamped on them while the .32s did not. Go figure.

jdh said:

There is a LCP in 32?

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There were conversion barrels made by an aftermarket company, but Ruger never made one and seemingly have zero interest in doing so instead preferring to make a .22 jam-o-matic.

Mavracer,
That’s like saying the Colt Python is only for shooting snakes, not Leo carry, or self defense. You purposely confuse the issue.
Time to shut this thread down.

TTv2 said:

There were conversion barrels made by an aftermarket company, but Ruger never made one and seemingly have zero interest in doing so instead preferring to make a .22 jam-o-matic.

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Dammit!

I have a 1903, a Seecamp, and a Tomcat. Not a problem with any. I like the Seecamp for a holdout.

But then I have lots of good .380s too and wouldn't likely carry anything smaller alone.

My standard carry is a 9mm Sig 938.

"The likelihood of any non-LEO in a defensive shooting having to shoot an attacker at any sort of angle other than square to their chest is low, thus the necessity of 12 inches of penetration is debatable."

Hmmm...I'm not sure the defender has any control over the position/angle of the attacker.
So I would place that statement squarely in the realm of BS.

For many years, I have read that the best advice is to carry the largest caliber you can shoot accurately.
And if the capacity is larger, so much the better.

For me, that includes regular practice to ensure a degree of marksmanship.
I have owned handguns from .22LR to .50GI.

The ones I practice with most frequently are (unsurprisingly) the ones I shoot best.
Those would be 9mm, .357 Mag, .10mm, 45acp, .45LC.

And those are the ones I carry.

GooseGestapo said:

Mavracer,
That’s like saying the Colt Python is only for shooting snakes, not Leo carry, or self defense. You purposely confuse the issue.
Time to shut this thread down.

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You're the one that's confusing what Colt calls the guns with their purpose.
A Colt Python is a Python because that's what Colt called it.
A 1903 32 ACP is a "Colt Pocket Hammerless" because that's what Colt called it.
A 1908 25 ACP is a "Colt Vest Pocket" because that's what Colt called it.
And the Walther PP is the "Police Pistol" because that's what walther says the PP stands for.

Grrrrr... Let's fight!! I'm with mavracer!!!

orionengnr said:

Hmmm...I'm not sure the defender has any control over the position/angle of the attacker.
So I would place that statement squarely in the realm of BS..

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In this thread, a singular attacker is anemic, undetermined, runs away at the sight of a gun or is incapacitated by fringe hit with FMJ.
We're talking "good area" carry.

Logical people don't want to get shot*.

I've seen it posted in other threads / forums, about their nice subdivision, shop at supermarket across from the police station.
Problem with that is the nice people normally encountered are not the reason they are carrying.
We are all carrying "just in case" meaning just in case somebody(s) try to kill us.
I live in a good area (exceptionally so) and the friendly people I see daily walking dogs, riding bikes are not why I'm carrying.
Odds are if I have to defend myself the threat(s) meriting use of lethal force are from elsewhere, they came here.

* Back to logical people don't want to get shot: Exhibiting behavior that merits lethal force is not logical; criminal, psycho, drugged is atypical.
Logical people do not attempt to rob, mug ect... don't apply rational thought process (I don't want to get shot) to someone acting irrationally.

I'm not naive and realize I'm likely wasting my time because the "good area" rationalization of minimal carry is common and pervasive.
Folks that are physically limited or a 32 (22lr/25 acp) is all they have is one thing, best they can do. (Include limited by work attire) My sympathy.
However, often it (minimal pocket gun) is the best they are willing to carry, they just don't state that.
Posted instead is condoning < 12'' penetration, disregard for expansion, acceptance of 32 FMJ, attacker expected to present unobstructed chest shot, ...

yea...that's why I like the 32...makes other people fight while I walk away.

mavracer said:

Thing is it's not a definition it's what Colt called them. So the 1903 Colt 32 ACP is a "Pocket Hammerless" and the 1908 Colt 25 ACP is a "Vest Pocket".
I don't care what you can actually fit in your pocket.

And the Walther PP 32 is still a "Polizeipistole" or Police Pistol regardless of what police carry today.

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Yep, this is why I said there is no point in arguing about nomenclature.

TTv2 said:

The .32's have much less options for defense ammo, fewer that expand, and none penetrate 12 inches, but if you can find a .32 that does and can go 9+ inches, I don't see an issue with that, I don't see how a shot center mass isn't going to pierce the heart and not going to stop someone, whether it expands or not.

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Some 32acp loads will do 12"+ of penetration. This is why I'm strongly partial to Fiocchi fmjs. No expansion of course, but it will penetrate.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/the-best-32-acp-ammo-for-self-defense/

Dunross said:

Some 32acp loads will do 12"+ of penetration. This is why I'm strongly partial to Fiocchi fmjs. No expansion of course, but it will penetrate.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/the-best-32-acp-ammo-for-self-defense/

View attachment 971577

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Euro made FMJ is my preference every day of the week in .32 ACP. S&B is also a good performer compared to American made .32 ACP.

Dunross said:

Some 32acp loads will do 12"+ of penetration. This is why I'm strongly partial to Fiocchi fmjs. No expansion of course, but it will penetrate.

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I can't find it now but Brassfetcher or Goldenloki used to have gel tests of the Fiocchi 60gr SJHP loaded to CIP (not the XTP loaded in US) and basically the jacket was too thick to expand but the exposed lead was soft enough to "smoosh out" in the .350-.360 range and would penetrate 14"+ IMHO about the best you could hope for with a 32 ACP.

I shot some else's Tomcat. Had alot of trouble constantly. I must admit it was filthy. 32 to small for carry IMO.

mavracer said:

I can't find it now but Brassfetcher or Goldenloki used to have gel tests of the Fiocchi 60gr SJHP loaded to CIP (not the XTP loaded in US) and basically the jacket was too thick to expand but the exposed lead was soft enough to "smoosh out" in the .350-.360 range and would penetrate 14"+ IMHO about the best you could hope for with a 32 ACP.

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Goldenloki used to have ballistics info on .32 ACP ammo out of a KelTec P32 on the web.

Per my old webpage copy from Goldenloki, FMJ 73 grain .32 ACP from Fiocchi, Geco, and S&B were the strongest performers in FPE by 37% on average over other FMJ ammo from other makers. All fired out of that KelTec.