Turnbull Restoration

No experience with them, but everything I've read says they're the best for case colors. There have been many examples posted here and they all looked good.

And yes, you'll be paying top dollar for that type of work. You may also want to see what their schedule is, often these types of artisans have a lengthy wait.

From what I have seen they do wonderful work. For the cost though, I wouldnt justify it unless it was truly a historic or rare arm though. Other than a showpiece, for an everyday run of the mill production rifle I dont see you would get your money back unless you had it truly customized...and new wood and blue is not customizing, necessarily. I had a 1961 model 94 totally refinished (both wood and bluing) for under two hundred dollars ten years ago, and I am absolutely sure the gun looked better than when it was new (done by Larry Romano at Alamo Gun Shop, Pennelville, NY).

Probably the rule-of-thumb formula out of the antiques trade applies.

So, if you bought [item] for $5, and it's likely to make $20 if sold, but only $10 in current condition, then spending $12 to getting it to $20 still "makes sense" ($5 + $12 = $17 < $20).

If the restoration would be $20, then the only reason to do it is for the "joy" of the restoration. (This is extremely typical in automobile restoration, for instance; the restoration is almost always 2x or 3x finished value.)

If you want the restoration, then the cost is (almost) irrelevant. If your goal is profit, then it's down to finances.

CapnMac said:

So, if you bought [item] for $5, and it's likely to make $20 if sold, but only $10 in current condition, then spending $12 to getting it to $20 still "makes sense" ($5 + $12 = $17 < $20).

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No, it doesn't make (economic) sense. The "added value" of the restoration, for which you are spending $12, is only $10. Looked at another way, if you sell it for $10 in its current condition, you make $5 profit. If you spend $12 on the restoration, raising your basis to $17, and then sell it for $20, you make only $3 profit.

Turnbull restorations, in general, are not economically justified. They might make sense for other reasons, such as in cases of irreplaceable rarity or sentimental attachment. (Not denying that they do good work, but it comes at a price.)

AlexanderA said:

No, it doesn't make (economic) sense. The "added value" of the restoration, for which you are spending $12, is only $10. Looked at another way, if you sell it for $10 in its current condition, you make $5 profit. If you spend $12 on the restoration, raising your basis to $17, and then sell it for $20, you make only $3 profit.

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Actually, that was my specific point.
Further, that you went from a $5 profit to $3.

The question then becomes one of if the seller cares that the item sold now has a higher value afterwards than before. Or if they want credit for that improvement, even at financial cost.

Owning beautiful things has its own reward. How much that reward is worth is an individual opinion.

I have examined many Turnbull restorations during preview days at the Rock Island Auction Co. Their work is absolutely first class. They may have equals but in my opinion they have no superiors. You have mentioned you are well aware of the cost. Go for it.....You wont be disappointed.

I have an A.H. Fox 20GA SxS "Sterlingworth" that he refinished, restocked and upgraded for me into an A.E. Grade. The gun has been in my family since just after WWI and multi generation of my family learned to shoot and hunt with it. My grandfather at some point turned it into a "youth model" by cutting a segment of stock off that would then be reattached when the shooter grew. It had seen some hard use on New England salt marshes and chasing woodcock and grouse.

It was about a one year wait and $3700 about 14 years ago. Fantastic work and a great guy to deal with. Not the best picture, but you'll get the idea:

tark said:

I have examined many Turnbull restorations during preview days at the Rock Island Auction Co. Their work is absolutely first class. They may have equals but in my opinion they have no superiors. You have mentioned you are well aware of the cost. Go for it.....You wont be disappointed.

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I agree with this 100%. I have at least three guns finished in Turnbull's shop. No wood work but the metal and finish work is stellar.

Carbona blue with case color and fire blue appointments on a Cimarron Open Top .44Colt:



Same treatment on this custom .500JRH.



The USFA Pre-war has Turnbull finishes.

I knew the senior Mr. Turnbull from visiting his shop countless time. I pestered him more than I bought stuff, but he was such a storehouse of knowledge I couldn't help myself. He was a great guy, always patient with me and had an outstanding shop and a nice range. He never explained the relationship between himself and his son, and I did get to meet the younger Mr. Turnbull several times when he came into his father's shop for something. I was so sad to hear of the closing of the shop and range that I couldn't go to the auction. A few years passed and the younger Mr. Turnbull's company had a table at a local gun show. I knew of his work before this, but I'd never seen an example. I was amazed at the quality of the work. I had a couple of things that needed more attention than I could provide, so after a year or two, I asked the representative from Turnbull's at the show if we could make arrangements to do this work. He said, "no, we don't do those any longer." Well, that was at least five years ago now and I'm still hoping that Turnbull's will change their policy and do the work on my guns. Their work is worth the wait and I wouldn't trust them to anyone else! Best of luck and make sure you post some before and after pictures after the work is completed.

drk1 said:

I knew the senior Mr. Turnbull from visiting his shop countless time. I pestered him more than I bought stuff, but he was such a storehouse of knowledge I couldn't help myself. He was a great guy, always patient with me and had an outstanding shop and a nice range. He never explained the relationship between himself and his son, and I did get to meet the younger Mr. Turnbull several times when he came into his father's shop for something. I was so sad to hear of the closing of the shop and range that I couldn't go to the auction. A few years passed and the younger Mr. Turnbull's company had a table at a local gun show. I knew of his work before this, but I'd never seen an example. I was amazed at the quality of the work. I had a couple of things that needed more attention than I could provide, so after a year or two, I asked the representative from Turnbull's at the show if we could make arrangements to do this work. He said, "no, we don't do those any longer." Well, that was at least five years ago now and I'm still hoping that Turnbull's will change their policy and do the work on my guns. Their work is worth the wait and I wouldn't trust them to anyone else! Best of luck and make sure you post some before and after pictures after the work is completed.

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What is the work? I'm sure there are plenty of gunsmiths n the US willing and able to do what you want.

CraigC said:

Same treatment on this custom .500JRH.

View attachment 976306

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I've always wondered about your avatar picture. What are the details on that revolver? It looks purdy.

CopperFouling said:

I've always wondered about your avatar picture. What are the details on that revolver? It looks purdy.

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I think you're asking about this one:
http://www.sixgunner.org/ultimatesixgun1.html

I'm a CraigC groupie, lol

That works, thanks!

I you take cost and time-frame out of the equation - I can't even begin to imagine you not being ecstatic about the results.

When one speaks to *fit, finish & detail*.... to see their work on tuning up factory stampings and roll marks is nothing short of incredible. Though, I must note that some sizes, fonts and styles they may not take on and should be addressed in the restoration negotiations.

The bluings and case-hardening will make me step back everydamn time.

Note this though, once they are done, you may never wish to touch the gun but to wax it every now and again.

Also there's this, be very ready for the *ruined the value* nay-sayers when your gun is done.

In most cases, they can be absolutely, objectively correct but the results should silence them and their concerns in your own mind.

Too, keep every bit of paperwork as once the restoration is established and cried over, noting Turnbull has done the work will be a salve to most purists woundings.


Todd.

This is one of my favorite pics of a Turnbull rifle.

Work is impeccable- cost is....well....take a deep breath and do it if you can afford it-. You will get a piece that will be an heirloom for many generations-

Turnbull does exceptional work from what i have seen. I am lucky enough to have a Turnbull finished gun and I consider it to be the finest in my collection. That said, some people also seem to think an antique Turnbull restored firearm to be worth more than the same gun in mint factory condition, which I find to be a questionable conclusion.

silicosys4 said:

Turnbull does exceptional work from what i have seen. I am lucky enough to have a Turnbull finished gun and I consider it to be the finest in my collection. That said, some people also seem to think an antique Turnbull restored firearm to be worth more than the same gun in mint factory condition, which I find to be a questionable conclusion.

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Doug does beautiful work but in cases of valuable firearms his restoration work can create a showpiece but sometimes LOWERS the value of a gun. I had a very good friend (coincidentally Turnbull sells an homage to my late friend) who was a master gunsmith - the real deal. He and I worked together on restoring a first gen black powder Colt SAA .32-20 I bought at a gun show in Allentown PA in the 80's. John Kopek in CA did the casehardening, Jerry and I the rest. Gun is beautiful - I get a million comments on her - but today worth LESS than value in original condition (although things that John did when he was still working are gaining in value).
And for my own tastes, some of Turnbull's work - especially his case coloring - is TOO bright and shiny, far gaudier than I've ever seen on even high-end factory pieces.

The general rule seems to be this: If a ratty gun is restored to near new or brand new condition, it is worth more than it was, which may or may not (usually not) cover the cost of the restoration.....BUT... it will not be worth nearly as much as the same gun in actual brand new condition. I see this all the time in the Rock Island Auction catalogs. In one instance, a restored SAA Colt went for just over half of what an original in the same condition gaveled at. Both were first generation with the same barrel length and features. When a collector looks at a potential purchase, he always thinks of two things ; originality and condition. The aforementioned Colt met neither criteria, regardless of its beauty. And it had plenty of that, it was a Turnbull restoration.

I would agree that if a ratty gun isn't really significant in any way that restoring it is a good idea. But for a collector piece it is the opposite; even well-executed restoration work is generally bad. I remember when I was young & flying to Utah with my father and a group of his friends for a Colt SAA auction. I saw a man I later learned represented an old singer/songwriter (Mel Torme, for those who are old enough to remember) pay the then-astronomical price of $3000 for a "ratty" Sheriff's model that had the nickle plating literally peeling off. The reason he paid so much is because so many collectors bid against him. I was surprised so later I asked him how much it would have sold for if the nickle had been restored; I thought he'd say $10 grand but he said $500 tops. It wouldn't be original any more. My friend Jerry did a lot of restorations for people all over the country because he was a close friend of the Colt folks in Hartford. He did custom work for them. But along the way he had bought boxes of original pre-war parts from them well before 1956. So if a collector needed a bolt or hand to get his gun to time, Jerry had the original era-specific parts to maintain the gun's authenticity. Even though reproduction parts were readily available it made him VERY popular - even Kopec bought from Jerry. Point is, a truly original collector gun - if we're discussing value, not aesthetics - is better left unrestored.

My winchester 50-110
Bought it on a whim when a fella’s safari was cancelled

I couldn’t help myself, too pretty.

Never shot it. May trade it away if I find something I desire a bit more.

Beautiful rifle!!