Good Situational Awareness , or Overthinking and Paranoia?

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Armednfree said:
And people don't understand us. They think we are paranoid (and maybe we are a bit) and overattentive. I've been asked many times why I look at everyone who comes in the room or walks near. Why the head on a swivel.

Then in fact they think us knowing just how evil people can be is some kind of fantasy. They cannot also believe how fast someone can go from calm to deadly. How they hunt and stalk.

I sometimes tell people if they came to my world they would adapt and become much like me, or flee.......or die.
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And that constant hyper awareness isn’t the best thing for us physically, long term.

But I don’t want to be a victim, and it’s so ingrained I can’t change it now.
 
Waveski said:
Went to church today with family. I initially selected a pew about 1/4 back from the front , which I consider ideal. A helpful usher motioned us towards a front row seat , and we followed his direction. After a short time it occurred to me that , in the unlikely and God forbid case of an attack by church shooter we would have bare minimal cover and very limited options , assuming the shooter were at the front of the church. I am no tactical expert , but I felt that the location was not good.Thinking through a worst case scenario , if (definitely if) I were to return fire I would want to separate myself from my family before doing so , and that would be very difficult if front and center.

Now , I did not break a sweat , nor did I decide to move to a different pew , but I did decide that I would locate myself and my family in a different part of the church next time we attend.

Would this thought process as described constitute reasonable situational awareness , or overactive imagination? Practical and reasonable , or whacky?
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Reasonable and practical.

I usually sit near the back, and always at the end of the row.
 
entropy said:
I sit in the second to the back row, to the right of the entrance. Unless an attacker pies the door after shooting from just outside the door, they will walk in fast, past me, and I will be in an ideal placement to fire, as engaging fire with someone behind your right side (if right handed) slows one down with a 180 turn either way need to directly engage. I should have time for two shots before they react. Beyond that, well, no plan survives first contact.
To the best of my knowledge I am the only CCW that carries in church, (it is a subject never brought up there) there is one other, who is female, and does not carry on body.



Yup, it's funny when my Dad and I get together, or my younger son and I, watching us jockey for the obsevational seat. I let Dad take it, my son lets me. The three of us haven't got together since my son got his CCW; that would be downright comical.....
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We have an official security team of which several open carry and already vet people at the entrance, which is the only unlocked door during services. Besides them about 10% of the congregation typically carries concealed.
 
Kleanbore said:
Seating position and situational awareness are not the same thing.

The former may help facilitate the latter, but the two are not synonymous.

Sitting in "a pew about 1/4 back from the front" would not help at all if someone came in from the entrance and started shooting.

We have had a lot of discussions here about where to sit in a restaurant. and that's good, but it can lead to a false sense of security.

Rob Pincus has demonstrated how a person at a lunch table who believes himself extremely alert and aware can be taken out without warning.

"You need to ask fo ra braille menu and eat without looking at your food".
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If I am off base,sorry.

But your post seemed to me to be in response to mine ?.

If that was the case,I am a bit offended that you are 'assuming' I am a dolt and just picking a seat looking at the door.

And Pincus is not one of my go to trainers,never was,never will be.

Again,if I am wrong,sorry.

And even at my ripe age,none who know me will attempt to 'catch me' off guard.

A few thought it would be funny ------------- it was not.
 
most people on this forum will die or live a suffering life because of their lifestyle choices way before a crazed gunman attacks them. that said, the usher can pass a collection plate but I would sit where I want, not where he tells me. another point, most of the shootings in church that I've read/heard about were targeting certain people, a cheating spouse/preacher....
 
Folks, the line between effective awareness and paranoia can be a fine one to step across. ;)

One of the guys at my cigar club is another retired cop (about 10 years younger than me). He always chooses a chair facing the doors. When he's present I often choose a chair that doesn't obstruct his line of sight (aimed fire) with either front or rear door ... and where I can keep a clear view of his face.

If his sudden attention and visual-lock on a possible occurs, and it attracts the attention of someone entering with ill intent (because many bad guys have developed cop radar), it'll also alert me. I might have a couple extra seconds to act if anyone isn't looking at me as a threat, and is busy looking at him. ;)

When he's not present? I've often taken one of the chairs and positions he uses. Or, I'll position myself to not be in the most direct line-of-sight and potentially attention-attracting person in the club. I also like to seek those positions which not only don't attract the eyes of some predator who may come calling, but which don't needlessly clutter my ability to do something, like put innocent people between me and some recently entered threat.

Now, I can't presume (and have no interest) in thinking to tell anyone else how to find such positions and make such decisions. I no longer train people or teach tactics, and I've taken what may become a permanent hiatus from serving as a firearms instructor. Other folks can figure out such things for themselves, or seek some training and instruction in doing so, and then decide if it's even necessary for their circumstances.

Paranoia and needless worry can cause more problems than they solve, though. Why needlessly aggravate and throw your own peace of mind and emotional well being into turmoil?

FWIW, sometimes being further from the door(s) when seated in a large room, crowded with people, might mean it may take longer for the eyes of someone just entering the room (planning harm) to alert on you. Too many other people between you might give you extra time to fire up your OODA Loop. ;)
 
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Here's something for armed citizens to consider - it might save you on that one day when something bad is about to go down... I learned on the street the hard way... NOT to alert in public when I saw someone in my vicinity that was a bad actor and needing attention.... It does take some practice (and on my part more than a few bad experiences...) before I learned to cool it and not react when I saw someone approaching or in position that was a definite hazard (warrants outstanding, a past history of very bad behaviors, or just in general giving off very bad vibes as to intent...). All too often, the moment I alerted it tipped off the bad guy (that "cop radar" that folks talk about). It works both ways - at times a sudden alert on your part will discourage someone intending bad stuff - other times it was a trigger so you'll have to use your own judgment.

I can say from personal experience that not alerting visibly (not giving off any noticeable "tells" ) was a great advantage when I knew in advance that I was going to need some backup - or that I needed to get official assistance on its way BEFORE it was going to be needed when I retired out (more than 25 years now..). Street life has its own rules and what most of us are doing is just trying to go about our lives without having to think about the dark side of things. Situational awareness is important though, and not alerting visibly when you see something wrong might just provide an opportunity to act or retreat before things get out of hand...
 
lemaymiami said:
Here's something for armed citizens to consider - it might save you on that one day when something bad is about to go down... I learned on the street the hard way... NOT to alert in public when I saw someone in my vicinity that was a bad actor and needing attention.... It does take some practice (and on my part more than a few bad experiences...) before I learned to cool it and not react when I saw someone approaching or in position that was a definite hazard (warrants outstanding, a past history of very bad behaviors, or just in general giving off very bad vibes as to intent...). All too often, the moment I alerted it tipped off the bad guy (that "cop radar" that folks talk about). It works both ways - at times a sudden alert on your part will discourage someone intending bad stuff - other times it was a trigger so you'll have to use your own judgment.

I can say from personal experience that not alerting visibly (not giving off any noticeable "tells" ) was a great advantage when I knew in advance that I was going to need some backup - or that I needed to get official assistance on its way BEFORE it was going to be needed when I retired out (more than 25 years now..). Street life has its own rules and what most of us are doing is just trying to go about our lives without having to think about the dark side of things. Situational awareness is important though, and not alerting visibly when you see something wrong might just provide an opportunity to act or retreat before things get out of hand...
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SPOT ON POST brother !.

Retired 14 years now and still think like a cop [ dont we all ? ] so that is GREAT advice.
 
We reside in a rural county. With that said a weekly news paper usually has the County Sherriff's Department report and there is also a report from the Police Department of the one major population center. You get a notice of what illegal activity is occurring/reoccurring. We have a drug problem more so than violent criminal activity. Armed robbery and or murder events are exceptionally rear occurrences. In 26Yrs I could count the number of shooting events on one hand. That's not to say it couldn't all go to hell tomorrow.

As an example go into the local McDonalds, people are preoccupied with eating as opposed to watching entrance/exit points or positioning themselves in the most advantageous observation/escape points. People are not on guard 24/7. Not everyone has law enforcement and or military experience and the previously mention may not have combatant experience either.
 
I do not have law enforcement or military experience but I was on a church security team where we used to attend. We honestly never had a problem arise while I attended there. I am thankful for that. I did make it a point not to sit in the front but to sit off to one side towards the back where I could see as much as possible. The strategy where I attended was to let the ushers watch the door, check the kids classrooms, etc. They did want people in attendance that carried but they wanted those people to be discreet & not call attention to themselves so that if a situation started the armed members would not be among the first targeted. I tried to pay attention without calling attention to myself.
 
SA, for me, is a lot like defensive driving skills. Develop good habits, as you are doing, and asking yourself "What could happen, in a situation, like this ?" in order to help be prepared, in the event of a situation arising. You do the exact same thing, on the road, especially in traffic, and when I have anticipated the less than stellar actions of others, it has saved me from accident and injury, many times, on the road.

So, I don't see it as being paranoid, or overthought, just better prepared.
 
In our church the last few rows are marked for families with young kids (which we are/have) so I'm usually on the end and always have half an eye on anyone coming in the main entrance, just in case since my shoulder blades get itchy facing the door.

We have ushers that I'm fairly certain are armed, though not obviously (I suppose the few times I've seen suspicious lumps could be phones at 4 oclock... And, considering the congregation and area I'd be pretty shocked if I was the only one routinely carrying at church as well.
 
Waveski said:
Now , I did not break a sweat , nor did I decide to move to a different pew , but I did decide that I would locate myself and my family in a different part of the church next time we attend.

Would this thought process as described constitute reasonable situational awareness , or overactive imagination? Practical and reasonable , or whacky?
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I'd consider it "reasonable," and certainly not "whacky.":thumbup:

It’s purely anecdotal (and you might not even believe me), but 7 or 8 years back, Idaho’s Governor and his wife visited our tiny church (60 people on a good day) in Pocatello one Sunday morning, and I paid attention to where the two “protection” guys positioned themselves that morning. One of them sat in one of the reserved seats in front, right next to the First Lady, and the other sat in the back corner of the church, off to the right of the main entrance. Furthermore, the guy that was in the back (who was also the driver) didn’t even walk into the church until the rest of the little group was already inside - he stood out by the car in the parking lot, and waited until the rest of the little group got inside before walking in himself. The reason I know that is because I arrived a few minutes late, and I saw that big guy standing beside a great big car in the parking lot. I also noticed he was keeping an eye on me as I was hurrying to get into the church.

What the deal was, was the Governor’s and First Lady’s daughter and her husband used to be members of our church, and when they decided to have their new baby “dedicated” one Sunday morning, they asked “Dad and Mom” to be there. My wife and I were the official “Greeters” at the time, so our Pastor came to us the Sunday before and told us to expect the Governor and his wife the following Sunday. He also asked us to “keep it quiet” because nobody wanted the news media there. And he told us the Governor and his wife would have “protection” as well.

At any rate, I watched how those two “protection” guys handled, and positioned themselves. BTW, I know 8% of the people in our church (including my wife and I) carry, and I suspect the number of people in our church that carry may be as high as 15%. We don’t have an official “security” team though.:cool:
 
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