Carbine pistols - 2 types?

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gun'sRgood

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It seems that you can either get a purposefully built AR platform pistol or get an AR 15 and apply an and adaption kit. Yes? If there's something I'm missing, which I would not doubt, please place knowledge here. And thank you. which is better and worse and why? I saw a Spikes lower for $265, 9mm. Stripped. It was for Colt mags. In all the gun shows I just don't seem to see many if any extended Colt 9mm mags. Or as My Wife would say, "your not looking hard enough." It seems Glock has a greater hold on the extended mag market? If your in the group of add the adaption, who would you use? Or if your in the get a purposefully built, who would you use? 9mm for these guys. Thx.

Side note: We were browsing around a Bass Pro Shop. The counter guy got "interested?" in my Wife. She asked him about ammo. He said that they have it but they were told to put it out at various times through the day. He goes in the back and bring out a cart half full of 9mm. Federal 115gr box of 50 for $14.99. Tell my Wife they don't gouge the prices. They let us get 1,000 rounds. Wow! That was nice!
 
Specifically talking lowers, an ar9 lower will most likely be more functionally reliable than an ar15 lower with an adapter block. Only way I would build on a ar15 lower was if I already had the lower and didn’t want to buy a different one. Realistically I would sell a basic ar15 lower and buy an ar9 lower to build on.
 
An AR-9 pistol is a interesting concept.
I can think of easier ways to have a large 9mm pistol--but, that's just my own bias.

An AR-9 pistol is going to have all of the same issues as an AR-9 carbine--very much associated with magazine choice and availability. Some of the BCG issues, too.

As a guess, it would be harder to build an AR-9 pistol from pieces parts.
 
I've got both types of 9mm lowers - one PSA dedicated AR-9 lower that takes Glock magazines - and a "standard" AR lower with an adapter setup to take the 9mm Colt style magazines.

The Colt-mag adapted one has never jammed once. The dedicated one had some teething issues but not related to the lower - at first I tried a Rise Armament trigger group in it but got light strikes. Went back to milspec and no more light strikes (and I've since switched to A CMC trigger with no issues). I also had some feeding issues on that one but only with aftermarket KCI magazines. With OEM Glock magazines it has never jammed.

You typically have to setup the buffer a little differently for 9mm (heavier buffer and a spacer) so I wouldn't consider it particularly practical to switch a regular lower back and forth for PCC use, but if it'll be a permanent fixture the adapter block works just as well. As to types - be aware that almost none of the 9mm AR's setup for Glock magazines will lock back on the last round (this is due to the magazines being single-feed so the follower is rather far from the bolt catch). The ones that take Colt style mags often do.

Also, if you're planning on using one for Glock magazines you need to make sure that your 9mm BCG is compatible with Glock magazines. Typically if they'll work with Glock mags they'll work with Colt mags too, but not always the reverse (strictly Colt style BCG's will get caught on the feed lips of a Glock magazine).

The adapter block that I personally use is the AR-stoner model here:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019567735?pid=900392

I also tend to use AR-stoner brand magazines with it.

My upper is a standard upper with no dust cover or forward assist. Tried a strictly 9mm PCC upper and I didn't like it as my handguard's anti-rotation tabs wouldn't mate up to it.

Almost all the rest of my 9mm specific parts (barrel, BCG, buffer) are by FM products.

Here's a pic of my upper on both the lowers.
guns.png
 
gun'sRgood said:
It seems that you can either get a purposefully built AR platform pistol or get an AR 15 and apply an and adaption kit.
Click to expand...
As long as the gun was originally a "pistol" or the lower an "other firearm" that was made into a pistol, you can do what I think you're suggesting.

If the AR was a rifle from the factory or built as a rifle "first" from a lower (how they know otherwise is beyond me), then you cant create a pistol from it.
 
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By chance are those forged uppers on billet lowers? Either way, I find them an great way to have fun getting rid of all those pesky 9mm laying around here.
 
Bought a 9mm built on a standard lower with an adapter block for Colt magazines. It worked but wasn't quite 100%. I ordered a complete lower lower with a Colt mag well. The adapter block was sold in less than a day for $10 less than the cost of the replacement lower including the dealer transfer fee. The original lower was mated to an extra 5.56 upper laying around after the 9mm parts were replaced with spares from junk box.
 
gun'sRgood said:
It was for Colt mags. In all the gun shows I just don't seem to see many if any extended Colt 9mm mags.
Click to expand...
When talking about 9mm AR, "Colt mags" means magazines for Colt's old conversions of AR-15 into SMG for the military. They are long enough sticks.
 
gun'sRgood said:
I just don't seem to see many if any extended Colt 9mm mags.
Click to expand...

Or just pick up some Uzi sticks (also all steel with a steel follower) and notch them for the magazine catch.

The only thing nice about the pricey Colt mags is that
they are very easy to unload.
Just bounce the base of a loaded magazine on a hard surface, you'll see.

JT
 
My local Speed Steel match allows pistol cal carbines to shoot too (in a different class). Observationally the Glock mag AR15 based carbines are more reliable than the Colt SMG mag based units, but neither is what I would consider a trustworthy firearm for 'social work'.

The purpose built PCCs like the CZ do tend to work better from what I've seen of them.

When I shoot a PCC I'm using a AUG 9mmP conversion which is pretty reliable as long as I'm using hotter Euro spec 9mmP instead of most of the American loads. The 9mmP AUG does not like the JHPs I have on hand for the pistols (Federal 9BPLE). The Tavor 9mmP conversion was a ammo toilet. It consumed everything I tried in it and had no malfunctions. The Tavor 9mmP is also the only PCC I'm aware of that is completely ambidextrous, you can switch the charging handle and side of ejection w/o needing any different parts.

The downside of the Tavor in 9mmP is that the caliber switch is a armorer level task. You're removing screws that are secured with thread locker and pulling the barrel, which isn't something you're going to do in the field. The AUG 9mmP conversion requires a field strip and reassembly with the other parts to convert it back to 556 NATO. The downside to the AUG 9mmP conversion is you have to own a AUG and you had to get a 9mmP kit for it when they were available for a short time before ATF closed down further imports.

If I was buying right now I'd get a Tavor in 9mmP, but I'd also be pairing it with a Tavor in 556. Same manual of arms and you don't learn any bad habits from shooting one or the other.

BSW
 
DocRock said:
Worth checking out Ian McCollum's video on the CMMG Banshee. It explains the substantial issues with developing pistol caliber ARs, particularly straight blowback designs. Although 9x18 is better suited to such designs than larger/more powerful cartridges, the magazine and feeding issues are also not inconsiderable.


https://www.forgottenweapons.com/cmmg-banshee-the-unique-radial-delayed-blowback-system/
Click to expand...

In a rifle sized weapon blowback 9mm Luger is fine (as noted in his video their problems were with .45 ACP, not 9mm). With the exception of the MP5 just about every 9mm SMG has been direct blowback (ie, the PPS-43, Suomi, MP40, MAS38, UZI, etc).

For 9mm the only thing a delayed blowback gives you is less felt recoil - from a reliability standpoint 9mm PCC's don't generate enough recoil to cause the feeding issues noted in his video.
 
mgmorden said:
In a rifle sized weapon blowback 9mm Luger is fine (as noted in his video their problems were with .45 ACP, not 9mm). With the exception of the MP5 just about every 9mm SMG has been direct blowback (ie, the PPS-43, Suomi, MP40, MAS38, UZI, etc).

For 9mm the only thing a delayed blowback gives you is less felt recoil - from a reliability standpoint 9mm PCC's don't generate enough recoil to cause the feeding issues noted in his video.
Click to expand...

Agree, straight blowback is simpler and cheaper and it works just fine. It's only if you're trying to save weight or have other considerations like needing to keep the bolt locked for suppressed use that you really need something more complex.

BSW
 
mgmorden said:
In a rifle sized weapon blowback 9mm Luger is fine (as noted in his video their problems were with .45 ACP, not 9mm). With the exception of the MP5 just about every 9mm SMG has been direct blowback (ie, the PPS-43, Suomi, MP40, MAS38, UZI, etc).

For 9mm the only thing a delayed blowback gives you is less felt recoil - from a reliability standpoint 9mm PCC's don't generate enough recoil to cause the feeding issues noted in his video.
Click to expand...

Agreed, except for magazine issues that are not action oriented.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
My daughters AR9 uses the Stern Defense adapter for Beretta M9 magazines and feeding has been excellent.
View attachment 981607
Click to expand...
I also bought into Stern with Glock and the only thing is no muscle memory for mag release. Shure blow through the ammo! Glad I bought primers waaaaay back. As soon as I heard D. Trump was stopping certain flights from coming in I started to buy whatever I could find.
 
briansmithwins said:
My local Speed Steel match allows pistol cal carbines to shoot too (in a different class). Observationally the Glock mag AR15 based carbines are more reliable than the Colt SMG mag based units, but neither is what I would consider a trustworthy firearm for 'social work'.

The purpose built PCCs like the CZ do tend to work better from what I've seen of them.

When I shoot a PCC I'm using a AUG 9mmP conversion which is pretty reliable as long as I'm using hotter Euro spec 9mmP instead of most of the American loads. The 9mmP AUG does not like the JHPs I have on hand for the pistols (Federal 9BPLE). The Tavor 9mmP conversion was a ammo toilet. It consumed everything I tried in it and had no malfunctions. The Tavor 9mmP is also the only PCC I'm aware of that is completely ambidextrous, you can switch the charging handle and side of ejection w/o needing any different parts.

The downside of the Tavor in 9mmP is that the caliber switch is a armorer level task. You're removing screws that are secured with thread locker and pulling the barrel, which isn't something you're going to do in the field. The AUG 9mmP conversion requires a field strip and reassembly with the other parts to convert it back to 556 NATO. The downside to the AUG 9mmP conversion is you have to own a AUG and you had to get a 9mmP kit for it when they were available for a short time before ATF closed down further imports.

If I was buying right now I'd get a Tavor in 9mmP, but I'd also be pairing it with a Tavor in 556. Same manual of arms and you don't learn any bad habits from shooting one or the other.

BSW
Click to expand...
Would you please show us a pic or two?
 
DocRock said:
Worth checking out Ian McCollum's video on the CMMG Banshee. It explains the substantial issues with developing pistol caliber ARs, particularly straight blowback designs. Although 9x18 is better suited to such designs than larger/more powerful cartridges, the magazine and feeding issues are also not inconsiderable.


https://www.forgottenweapons.com/cmmg-banshee-the-unique-radial-delayed-blowback-system/
Click to expand...
I was wondering about getting a .45 in this platform. So, THANKS!
 
WVsig said:
Why not get a 9mm pistol designed and built for the 9mm caliber like the Stribog, CZ Scorpion or MP5?
Click to expand...
I think perhaps because I've got so many triggers, grips and such from AR builds that I've been wondering if your exactly right or just go with the conversion? If there are no real problems with the conversions then I think that would be better spent money because of all the parts already here. I think? I did get a Stern and no problems. But is that only me?
 
I bought mine from palmetto state complete and it has been just about flawless if not for 2 problems that were ammo related. 8” barrel and takes Glock mags. I love it and have run a few thousand rounds through it already, usually ~400 per range trip. F77E78D8-0ED1-4A7C-B5DA-382BD0C715EA.jpeg
 
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