Proposal for bullet 45-250-HB

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Onty

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I was looking for a nice bullet (mold) for my Ruger Old Army, but after looking what is around, the one that got my attention was Kaido style bullet:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHSUj-UiLe2Ajq6KsEBH334Vn0EoJthbG-Bw&usqp=CAU.jpg

This bullet has flat point, 2 grease grooves and rebated bottom dia for easier loading.

After checking what bullseye shooters are using, I found that hollow base wadcutter is considered as a top choice by many, talking about 38 Special cartridge. Since hollow base bullet is standard for 455 Webley (I helped in reverse engineering when new mold was made), I started thinking why not to have a bullet for black powder revolver 45 cal with flat point and hollow base. Anyhow, here is that version:

h0YMyts.jpg

As you could see, bullet is designed to go inside cylinder chamber .225", having .500" protrusion out of cylinder. In that case, cylinder does not need to be removed from the revolver frame in order to press bullet into chamber. At least in Ruger Old Army. Unfortunately, I do not have any other 45 cal. BP revolver to check dimensions.

Regarding .457" nominal dia, as is it might be too large. However, it could be reduced during lubing process.

Please let me know what do you think. I would appreciate any opinion and/or suggestion.
 
The hollow base means it’s long for it’s weight. Flat based bullets are every bit as accurate as hollow base bullets and a 220+ grain bullet offers enough inertia that it will expand into the rifling grooves every bit as well as the hollow base. This is one of my favorite bullets. Hits hard and it’s accurate. A356596E-28AE-45DA-90DC-2BACC3689857.png 012175F2-2460-4BA5-B2D1-14C881765DFB.png 21FA59A9-8620-4B14-9D65-C1EF7F3925BA.jpeg
 
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The hollow base means it’s long for it’s weight. Flat based bullets are every bit as accurate as hollow base bullets and a 220+ grain bullet offers enough inertia that it will expand into the rifling grooves every bit as well as the hollow base. This is one of my favorite bullets. Hits hard and it’s accurate.View attachment 982297View attachment 982298View attachment 982299


You bought that design? I’d like to know more about your load and whatnot as I abandoned this design for the 285C thinking I was moving from TX and dealing with hogs to VA and maybe hunting bears, which never happened...
 
You bought that design? I’d like to know more about your load and whatnot as I abandoned this design for the 285C thinking I was moving from TX and dealing with hogs to VA and maybe hunting bears, which never happened...
Yep! I like it. You must load it with one of the off gun presses and If you aren’t careful it can tip on you. Other than that, it’s been really good in my guns. I’m using it cast at .458” (my chambers are all .456 except for the ROA.) and it’s not difficult to seat. I’m using 25-30 grains of 3f triple 7 in the 1860 sheriffs model. 30 grains 3f in the ROA. Accuracy is around 2” at 25 yards from the 1860.
 
Yep! I like it. You must load it with one of the off gun presses and If you aren’t careful it can tip on you. Other than that, it’s been really good in my guns. I’m using it cast at .458” (my chambers are all .456 except for the ROA.) and it’s not difficult to seat. I’m using 25-30 grains of 3f triple 7 in the 1860 sheriffs model. 30 grains 3f in the ROA. Accuracy is around 2” at 25 yards from the 1860.


Still might tip despite being longer than the other (195C)?

Did you ream your chambers?

Can’t argue with your results!
 
Still might tip despite being longer than the other (195C)?

Did you ream your chambers?

Can’t argue with your results!
Pure lead is so soft, I don’t like to think that the base might be canted even though the bullet is long enough to straighten up as it’s seated. The 195 is touchy... still good if you’re paying attention. Charlie Hahn did the chambers. That’s a critical operation IMO, if it’s done right it’s very helpful. Done wrong you may have a revolver that patterns like a 12 gauge...

And thanks. Some days I can still shoot pretty well. I’m 75 this year and my eyes are not what they once were. Nothing is... haha!
 
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Yep! I like it. You must load it with one of the off gun presses and If you aren’t careful it can tip on you. Other than that, it’s been really good in my guns. I’m using it cast at .458” (my chambers are all .456 except for the ROA.) and it’s not difficult to seat. I’m using 25-30 grains of 3f triple 7 in the 1860 sheriffs model. 30 grains 3f in the ROA. Accuracy is around 2” at 25 yards from the 1860.
Congratulations, this is excellent accuracy by any yardstick! Obviously, your revolver has very god cylinder chambers to barrel alignment.

Who makes the mold?

As for the canting, a gentleman on another forum warned me about canting problem if rebated dia shank is short. So, for that reason I made it longer, and it will go .225" into cylinder before larger bullet dia hits chamber edge. Also, I made meplat .300" dia, so it will fit into ROA rammer. This should (I hope) align cylinder chamber with rammer and prevent rammer hitting cylinder front face..

BTW, I have a spare cylinder for ROA, and I will try to chamfer chambers. In that case bullet will be squeezed rather than cut. According to article SHOOTING THE BLACK POWDER REVOLVER 2, by John L. Fuhring
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html , benefits of chamfered chambers are also better sealing and easier ramming of the bullet.
 
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Try a 5 degree reamer, turn it by hand, only a 1/4 inch is needed, I did this on all of my c&b cylinders to stop lead cutting. Ball or bullet compresses into the chambers and seals nicely.
 
Just as a trivia item, the Remington factory .45 LC bullet is hollow based.
I have suggested that a friend get some for his Webley but he does not shoot it often enough to bother with a dedicated bullet.
I don't know if they still sell them retail, though.
 
Congratulations, this is excellent accuracy by any yardstick! Obviously, your revolver has very god cylinder chambers to barrel alignment.

Who makes the mold?

As for the canting, a gentleman on another forum warned me about canting problem if rebated dia shank is short. So, for that reason I made it longer, and it will go .225" into cylinder before larger bullet dia hits chamber edge. Also, I made meplat .300" dia, so it will fit into ROA rammer. This should (I hope) align cylinder chamber with rammer and prevent rammer hitting cylinder front face..

BTW, I have a spare cylinder for ROA, and I will try to chamfer chambers. In that case bullet will be squeezed rather than cut. According to article SHOOTING THE BLACK POWDER REVOLVER 2, by John L. Fuhring
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html , benefits of chamfered chambers are also better sealing and easier ramming of the bullet.
Accurate Molds is the manufacturer. Excellent quality work. This is my first brass mold and it works fine but I think I’ll go back to iron molds next time.
 
Just as a trivia item, the Remington factory .45 LC bullet is hollow based.
I have suggested that a friend get some for his Webley but he does not shoot it often enough to bother with a dedicated bullet.
I don't know if they still sell them retail, though.
Jim, did you ever try Remington factory 45 Colt? If so, did you see any difference in accuracy when compared with other ammo, factory or hand loaded, with flat base bullets?

BTW, If your friend has .455 Webley, hollow base is highly recommended because Webley revolvers have undersized cylinder chambers, mostly .447-.449". This is because their round Mk I started as a black powder one, so in order to bump up the pressure, .455" bullet is fired through smaller cylinder chamber. Now, bullet exits cylinder undersized, so in order to get it up to groove dia, hollow base bullet will expand and bullet will seal the barrel.

As for mold, RCBS use to make it, but as far as I know they stopped its production. There is another manufacturer making .455 Webley mold, but I am not sure can I put its name and website because of the rules for advertisement here.
 
Quite a good idea. In a similar vein, this is why I really liked and miss the old Buffalo Ball-ets. They were essentially a round ball with a skirt, sort of Minie-esque. I understand they went under in the Great Recession. It's a pity, they shot very well in every 44 cal cap and ball gun I tried them in.
 
Try a 5 degree reamer, turn it by hand, only a 1/4 inch is needed, I did this on all of my c&b cylinders to stop lead cutting. Ball or bullet compresses into the chambers and seals nicely.
Do you have any result before and after making countersink? Yea, I also prefer pressing bullet in rather than cutting excessive lead. As a matter of fact, I suspected that long time ago. That article just confirmed my expectations.

As for a depth, if you want to have .010" more on dia, to make sure that even slightly canted bullet will be centered, in that case for 5 degrees you need about .110" depth. But hey, if 1/4 depth works for you, that's fine.

Taking about 5 degrees angle (included), Ruger has it as a standard on barrel forcing cones on all their revolvers. However, I am more inclined toward bit larger angle, like 11 degrees. This one is a standard on forcing cones on many other revolvers, and custom smiths are using it also on their revolvers, see article https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/revolvers/manson-reamers-forcing-cone-tools/ .
 
Quite a good idea. In a similar vein, this is why I really liked and miss the old Buffalo Ball-ets. They were essentially a round ball with a skirt, sort of Minie-esque. I understand they went under in the Great Recession. It's a pity, they shot very well in every 44 cal cap and ball gun I tried them in.
When there is a slight misalignment between cylinder chambers and barrel, bullet gets slightly deformed and that affects accuracy. Hollow base bullet expands and seals the barrel, compensating for that deformation.
 
That 5 degree chamfer made a huge difference in my Walker, as well as cutting an 11 degree forcing cone. I liked it so much I did it on the rest of my open top revolvers. The Walker is a good 100 yard shooter now, will hold minute of jackrabbit quite nicely at those ranges.
 
Quite a good idea. In a similar vein, this is why I really liked and miss the old Buffalo Ball-ets. They were essentially a round ball with a skirt, sort of Minie-esque. I understand they went under in the Great Recession. It's a pity, they shot very well in every 44 cal cap and ball gun I tried them in.
I used a few boxes of them too and liked them. They loaded easily in the reproduction Colts, shot very well too.
Someone on this forum used a drill and reamer to open up a .457” roundball mold creating something similar to the ball-et, without the knurling or the hollow base. Hollow bases are generally more trouble than worth IMO unless, like the Buffalo Bullet, the skirts are very thick.
 
That 5 degree chamfer made a huge difference in my Walker, as well as cutting an 11 degree forcing cone. I liked it so much I did it on the rest of my open top revolvers. The Walker is a good 100 yard shooter now, will hold minute of jackrabbit quite nicely at those ranges.

I chamfered some of my cylinders but i used a bullet case reaming tool. I dont think its 5 degrees though...more like .45, but it did the job to swage the ball/bullet in and i too saw an improvement in accuracy
 
At .750” long it sure will eat up powder capacity.
Please make note that I adjusted some dimensions and weights. OAL is now .730".

I followed Kaido Ojamaa 255 bullet for Ruger Old Army, see:



So, when compared with Kaido 255 grains bullet, mine is longer since it has hollow base, but bullet volume is the same because of the cavity in the base. In that respect, there is no loss of powder space when 457-255-HB-RB bullet is compared with noted Kaido bullet.
 
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Please make note that I adjusted some dimensions and weights. OAL is now .730".

I followed Kaido Ojamaa 255 bullet for Ruger Old Army, see:



So, when compared with Kaido 255 grains bullet, mine is longer since it has hollow base, but bullet volume is the same because of the cavity in the base. In that respect, there is no loss of powder space when 457-255-HB-RB bullet is compared with noted Kaido bullet.



Can one be certain powder fills that cavity? I also wondered about the thin walls of the base and whether or not it would stay uniform.

I hope you don’t feel I’m raining on your parade, but giving you something to think about. The base may well fill up with powder, I don’t know, and the base wall might be just fine as well.

Why do you feel the need for a hollow base in a Ruger? Their chambers are no less than groove diameter. I don’t recall, but I think mine was .452” when I thought it would be slightly over groove at .453”. No need for a hollow base there. Now a Pietta with grossly undersized chambers... Mine was reamed to .449” and obturation likely fixes the small gap, though I keep contemplating going to .452” (almost groove diameter).
 
Can one be certain powder fills that cavity? I also wondered about the thin walls of the base and whether or not it would stay uniform.

I hope you don’t feel I’m raining on your parade, but giving you something to think about. The base may well fill up with powder, I don’t know, and the base wall might be just fine as well.

Why do you feel the need for a hollow base in a Ruger? Their chambers are no less than groove diameter. I don’t recall, but I think mine was .452” when I thought it would be slightly over groove at .453”. No need for a hollow base there. Now a Pietta with grossly undersized chambers... Mine was reamed to .449” and obturation likely fixes the small gap, though I keep contemplating going to .452” (almost groove diameter).
Any opinion or is very welcome! I had same doubts. And I am sure that some revolvers do not need hollow base bullets. However, many will benefit in therm of accuracy, since the most of revolvers on the market do not have chambers aligned as FA and high grade custom revolvers. Considering that hollow base 38 WC bullet is one of few the most accurate bullets, I came with idea why not to create heavier bullet I always wanted, but with hollow base.

Am I right? I am not sure. However, the only way to find this is to make a mold and test the bullet. I am lucky to know Miha Prevec, owner of MP-Molds mp-molds.com/ , and will talk to him if he has time to manufacture such mold.
 
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