Nasty double rifle recoil

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Kano383

Kano383

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A few days ago, I fired a double in .470 NE. Made in Ferlach, Austria, a good quality rifle, weighing in the 10.5-11 lbs from what I can tell. Not bad in balance, certainly better than the Krieghoff or Merkels I have handled, although not as well balanced as some old English doubles I had in my hands.

Well... That stupid thing kicked like a mule. A nasty, sharp punch in the shoulder, and lots of muzzle rise. Two rounds were all I cared for, and the next day I saw a bruise on my shoulder.

Now, before someone starts the smart comments about going to the gym, and graduating from a .22 LR to a .22 Magnum: my light rifle is a 9.3x62, and my carry rifle is a .458 Lott weighing all of 8.6 lbs empty. On a recoil calculator, no matter how many times I punch the numbers in, my Lott has more recoil than that double.

When I sight-in the Lott, or plink a few rounds, I've set a personal daily limit of 6 rounds to avoid shots becoming unpleasant (which your brain has a tendency to remember even if you're not aware of it). Never did that rifle hurt me.

So, what gives? My quick assessment is: too hard and too narrow a recoil pad, and too much slope on the stock. The Lott as a very straight comb, and a really good pad. It was built for the job: started as an off-the shelf CZ 550, then got shortened to 20", innards polished and feeding perfected, and the stock lightened by a master rifle maker till the balance was just right. A Limbsaver recoil pad was installed, and the stock trimmed and reshaped till it fitted me (that was a US-made CZ walnut stock, they're bulkier to start with than the European made stocks). That's all...

In conclusion: if you have a hard recoiling rifle, fit and details are much more important than raw weight...
 
Fit is everything.
I remember a Marlin 45-70 hand loaded to maximum that hurt every shot. Worse then the 375 H&H.
I turned down an offer to fire a bolt action .505 Gibbs about 3 years ago & before that a 458 Win. Mag.
* Turned down firing a 50 BMG & a bullpup single shot wildcat 50 caliber on a necked up 460 Weatherby case.*( Added)

The 505 was fired from a standing position using a high portable benchrest
No thank you.

At your location, i would guess a BIG gun is a must have.
 
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When you shoot those big guns you need to remember. The bite from the rifle is less than the bite from the critters that they are meant for.
I have never shot any of the big bores, but would like to - just to do it.
 
I fired one round....... ONE from a Zanardini .500.

Now, aside from the ammo costing some $35.00 per abuse - the recoil, rise and spin was a thing that I was not remotely prepared for.

Two things came to mind behind that.

1) How in THE actual hell would I have coped if I had been required to light off that second frame-breaker?

2) Does/did anyone ever get used to it?

I had a significant shooting vest on so the pad helped considerably but really, how does a guy my size and shape gut-up for one shot from George Foreman in his prime?

Made my lightest .45-70 and what I had previously felt to be abusive .404 Jefery feel merely *sporty*.

Todd.
 
Speedo66 said:
.45-70’s from a curved steel butt plated Trapdoor Springfield Carbine hurt enough to make me not want to finish the box.

Stock design is definitely important.
Click to expand...

I believe it. You wonder how the smaller soldiers of the 1870s handled that.
 
Double shotguns firing dove loads punch me in the beak with every pull of the trigger.

A .470 double? I’d probably hit the floor like an AAU boxer in the ring with Mike Tyson in his prime... :what:

Congrats on firing a beautiful rifle...too bad it’s a biter. :(

Stay safe.
 
ApacheCoTodd said:
I fired one round....... ONE from a Zanardini .500.

Now, aside from the ammo costing some $35.00 per abuse - the recoil, rise and spin was a thing that I was not remotely prepared for....

Todd.
Click to expand...

I know next to nothing about heavy double rifles. In particular, I did not know they had spin when fired. Could you explain what that is? Is it something to do with the rifling, or something about each barrel being slightly off-center? And apologies if this is a dumb question.
 
Monac said:
I know next to nothing about heavy double rifles. In particular, I did not know they had spin when fired. Could you explain what that is? Is it something to do with the rifling, or something about each barrel being slightly off-center? And apologies if this is a dumb question.
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It was ME that was almost set to spinning.

I didn't have my right leg anywhere near far enough behind me. I think I subconsciously set myself too perpendicular to the bore.

It was a bit embarrassing but at least I did not drop that stupendously expensive beauty.

Todd.
 
JeffG said:
I had the unpleasant surprise to shoot a double .600NE. Not a gun for me. I use one of the empty casings to measure black powder into my muzzle loading cannon. The bullet resisting the rifling can impart a spin on the rifle.
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Twist was certainly noteworthy. It would be interesting to feel a monster-bore that had the rifling with opposing twists fired one after the other.

Todd.
 
On the topic of big bores... These guns' primary purpose is to save your (or someone else's) bacon when things go pear-shaped. This leads to a few requisites: One, absolute reliability. Two, proficiency on your part. Three, fast follow-up shots.

If the rifle hurts, then bye-bye proficiency: you won't be able to shoot it enough to get proficient with it, and you may develop a flinch if you try and force yourself to shoot it more than your body agrees with.

Also, if the rifle has too much muzzle rise, you'll be impaired for a quick second shot - and when one needs a quick second shot, you can capitalize, bold and underline QUICK.

So, a hard-kicking, flippin' around big bore rifle is an exercise in futility. Expensive wall hanger as far as I'm concerned.

A well-built modern big bore will certainly push you, but will be controllable with the proper technique, nothing as spectacularly bad as the legends make it.
 
Almost certainly a matter of stock geometry and fit. The likelihood is very high that a well made double was custom stocked for the original owner. He may have been oddly shaped, a round little Hapsburger perhaps, or a hirsute Magyar noble of extraordinary proportions. I do not suggest of course that yours could be anything but the most regular and conventional of shapes...:p
 
Some stock designs distribute recoil forces more mercifully that others.

I have fired guns whose stock designers musta been twirling Snidley Whiplash mustaches chortling Mwah-hahaha at the thought of what their stock would do to my shoulder.
 
I’ve shot multiple thousand rounds through doubles. Mainly the .470 NE but have also played with a smattering of .500 NE, .450 and .400 bore nitros.

The biggest mistake people make when shooting a double is not gripping the forend correctly. 80% of your grip on the rifle is on the forend, and when you hold on to the forend it’s with a full grip wrapping your fingers around the barrels. Do not simply “pinch” the forend wood.

Once you learn this technique with a double rifle felt recoil, muzzle rise and muzzle torque (spin) are greatly reduced.
 
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I like shooting my .375 Weatherbys (rechambered from H&H) for a modest number of shots, almost identical to a 12 gauge duck load IMHO . I don't like shooting my 1958 .458 Winchester 70 African , even with 400 grain bullets but it is not a deal breaker. I left a push feed 1970s Winchester .458 with the PF as a tip in 1980s and in subsequent trips topped out at .375 H&H and shot evrything to Buff 100%. I never shot rhino or elephant , I like them ! I hated the .378 Weatherby and sold the one I had long ago with few shots thru it . I did have a .470 "Army and Navy" cased English SxS in the 90s as an investment and shot it 20 times with some older ammo . It did kick as the leather covered rubber pad was not that soft and the stock did have some drop for Iron sights as the gun was made 1934 . I was also in my prime and tough as nails. I had learned from the tragic firing of a Howdah pistol one New Years that "old Walnut cracks on large bore guns" the restorer warned me. So watched for signs on the .470 the few times I fired it for friends entertainment. It didn't crack but I sold it worrying everytime I shot it. I had learned about wrapping fingers around heavy recoiling foreends in the 80s in Africa . The .470 is actually a pretty sweet cartridge and a lot easier kicker than the .458 Lott, which is too much for me . The gun you shot must have had some drop in stock and a hard narrow pad and maybe you diddn't hold the foreend of the double correctly as stated above.

My brace of 1950s Winchester Model 70s Super grades: A .458 African and a .375 H&H . I never took these to Africa and will not modify them to Lott and ..375 Weatherby .I used other guns for Africa! These are recent acquisisions
IMG_20190814_190958520.jpg
 
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Gordon said:
I like shooting my .375 Weatherbys (rechambered from H&H) for a modest number of shots, almost identical to a 12 gauge duck load IMHO . I don't like shooting my 1958 Winchester 70 African , even with 400 grain bullets but it is not a deal breaker. I left a push feed 1970s Winchester .458 with the PF as a tip in 1980s and in subsequent trips topped out at .375 H&H and shot evrything to Buff 100%. I never shot rhino or elephant , I like them ! I hated the .378 Weatherby and sold the one I had long ago with few shots thru it . I did have a .470 "Army and Navy" cased English SxS in the 90s as an investment and shot it 20 times with some older ammo . It did kick as the leather covered rubber pad was not that soft and the stock did have some drop for Iron sights as the gun was made 1934 . I was also in my prime and tough as nails. I had learned from the tragic firing of a Howdah pistol one New Years that "old Walnut cracks on large bore guns" the restorer warned me. So watched for signs on the .470 the few times I fired it for friends entertainment. It didn't crack but I sold it worrying everytime I shot it. I had learned about wrapping fingers around heavy recoiling foreends in the 80s in Africa . The .470 is actually a pretty sweet cartridge and a lot easier kicker than the .458 Lott, which is too much for me . The gun you shot must have had some drop in stock and a hard narrow pad and maybe you diddn't hold the foreend of the double correctly as stated above.
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I’ve killed several Cape buffalo and elephant with a double in .470 NE. If I was a PH hunting in thick Jesse I’d carry a .500 NE, the difference on a head shot that narrowly missed the brain with a .470 and a .500 is noticeable. The .500 has just the right amount of extra for elephant protection without to much more recoil or loss of controlability over a .470.

For the average client I think the perfect rifle is a low power variable scooped .375 H&H or a .416 or a .404. With modern controlled expansion bullets those rounds are truly up for the job on thick skinned DG. They are not however the best choice for snap shooting a charging elephant in the face at close range. That’s where the big bores shine over a medium bore. It’s also where a double and a man who knows how to use one shines over a bolt gun.
 
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H&Hhunter said:
I’ve killed several Cape buffalo and elephant with a double in .470 NE. If I was a PH hunting in thick Jesse I’d carry a .500 NE, the difference on a head shot that narrowly missed the brain with a .470 and a .500 is noticeable. The .500 has just the right amount of extra for elephant protection without to much more recoil or loss of controlability over a .470.
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Very interesting first-hand anecdotal experiences on the difference between .470 & .500. Thanks for adding that - I've always been a bit curious about practical advantages in a .500 after shooting that beast.

Todd.
 
I have a 500 double that weighs 9.5 lb. This is under weight for a 500 and gives the lie to the old canard that doubles are too heavy. At 9.5 lb my 500 will have noticeably more free recoil than the 470 at the opening of this thread. While it leaves no doubt in mind that it went off, it doesn't punish as bad as described above. It's my experience that stock fit can make a big difference.
 
unspellable said:
I have a 500 double that weighs 9.5 lb. This is under weight for a 500 and gives the lie to the old canard that doubles are too heavy. At 9.5 lb my 500 will have noticeably more free recoil than the 470 at the opening of this thread. While it leaves no doubt in mind that it went off, it doesn't punish as bad as described above. It's my experience that stock fit can make a big difference.
Click to expand...
That is a light .500NE, what make is it?
 
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