Braced Pistols??

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Sniper66

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I've been evaluating braced pistols and would like to hear from you guys out there in THR land. I've watched a few you tube videos of the Banshee from CMMG. I'm thinking with the current assault on guns by politicians, I should get one soon as they might not be available in the future. CMMG posts a 20 week delay on shipping. What can you tell me about braced pistols in general and the Banshee in particular? I'll appreciate your help.
 
Braced pistols are basically just a short rifle with a legal stock. The only real difference is, a shorter than legal rifle barrel and a stock that's not a stock but you can use it as one. Some are better than others, and it looks like the Banshee has one of the better ones mounted.

The whole thing is assininty in government regulations. :)

Bad time to be looking for anything really, but if you really want the Banshee, you should probably get your name on the list, unless you can find one elsewhere.

I have a couple of AR's with those braces mounted, and they work well and as advertised. If youre a nose to the charging handle shooter, and like shorter LOP's, you probably wont notice a difference.
 
I hastily built an AR pistol when rumor floated about them being added to the NFA list. I am glad I did and would build another if I could. Jump on the bandwagon before it gets banned is how I see it.
 
I've got both a AR pistol and an AR carbine. In practical terms, the carbine is Clampet/ Bodine accurate. I use it every day. The AR pistol has fair accuracy, out to 50 yards, but it gets dicey, at 100, and I don't find it as practical, so it's an "occasional use" gun. IMO, not as great as it's
hyped up to be, and surely not as useful, in overall practical terms, as the carbine.

YMMV, based upon usage, and other variables.
 
Braced pistols are basically just a short rifle with a legal stock.
No. No. No. Stop it.
Want to get someone in trouble? This is how it starts.


The only real difference is, a shorter than legal rifle barrel and a stock that's not a stock but you can use it as one.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.




The whole thing is assininty in government regulations.
No matter how asinine we may feel those regulations are, it's been asinine since 1934.

Attaching an arm brace to a pistol is not the same as attaching a shoulder stock to a pistol

From ATF's letter to SB Tactical: "To the extent the January 2015 letter implied or has been construed to hold that incidental, sporadic, or situational use of an arm brace (in its original approved configuration) from a firing position at or near the shoulder was sufficient to constitute 'redesign', such interpretations are incorrect and not consistent with ATF's interpretation of the statute or the manner in which it has historically been enforced."

"basically just", "only real difference", "not a stock but you can use it as one"............are wholly and completely the wrong advice to give. Yeah, I'm nitpicking. Because nitpicking keeps folks from losing their gun rights forever.
 
So what is it "now"? You can shoulder it or you cant? What?

The whole thing is BS, and you know it, and yet no one seems to want to address it.

If the ATF said you cant shoulder it, and then said you could, why hasn't the NRA taken them to court and challenged the whole SBR thing?

Oh, wait, the NRA doesn't do things that might actually get something done. That would be self-defeating. Forgot.:thumbup:
 
I've got both a AR pistol and an AR carbine. In practical terms, the carbine is Clampet/ Bodine accurate. I use it every day. The AR pistol has fair accuracy, out to 50 yards, but it gets dicey, at 100, and I don't find it as practical, so it's an "occasional use" gun. IMO, not as great as it's
hyped up to be, and surely not as useful, in overall practical terms, as the carbine.

YMMV, based upon usage, and other variables.
All of mine seem to be capable of the same accuracy as my 16" guns at 100 yards.

I shot the group on the badge on the hat from a rest at 100 with one of my 10.5" guns using a 4moa red dot. That insignia measures about 1" x1.5".

enhance.jpg
 
Thanks for the responses thus far. I would be particularly interested in quality issues if you have had experience with the Banshee.
 
So what is it "now"? You can shoulder it or you cant? What?
AGAIN..........
From ATF's letter to SB Tactical: "To the extent the January 2015 letter implied or has been construed to hold that incidental, sporadic, or situational use of an arm brace (in its original approved configuration) from a firing position at or near the shoulder was sufficient to constitute 'redesign', such interpretations are incorrect and not consistent with ATF's interpretation of the statute or the manner in which it has historically been enforced."


The whole thing is BS, and you know it,
What you or I think is "BS" is immaterial. What ATF thinks matters quite a bit.



and yet no one seems to want to address it.
Huh?o_O
"it" has been addressed ad nauseum since the day the first arm brace was sold.....and that's why your first post is ill advised.;)


If the ATF said you cant shoulder it, and then said you could, why hasn't the NRA taken them to court and challenged the whole SBR thing?
Because:
1. An arm brace does not make a pistol an SBR.
2. Why would the NRA sue over the "whole SBR thing" when an arm brace attached to a pistol is not an SBR?:scrutiny: I'm thinking you are pretty confused.



Oh, wait, the NRA doesn't do things that might actually get something done. That would be self-defeating. Forgot.:thumbup:
1. The NRA wasn't as strong or influential in 1934, only starting political action because of the NFA.
2. Here's a list of a few NRA cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Litigation
 
I LOVE my AR pistols in pistol caliber. They are certainly not for everyone. The one mentioned is a TOP of the line choice but, as mentioned is a long wait or high cost. If you want one now, you have to be willing to pay today's price. The brace may well be taken away from us. If they do we would have the choice of ditching them or going NFA. If you want a Banshee I would not wait if you can afford it. Only down side to mine (not CMMG's) is they are super easy to burn a LOT of ammo in a very short damn time :)
 
Because:
1. An arm brace does not make a pistol an SBR.
2. Why would the NRA sue over the "whole SBR thing" when an arm brace attached to a pistol is not an SBR?:scrutiny: I'm thinking you are pretty confused.
Lets see, the ATF says no, you cant. Then says, yes, you can. So which is it? They did say both.

A "pistol" with a brace that "can be shouldered" by the ATF's own admission, is no different than a SBR with a stock. So why wouldn't you take them to court over it? If you can shoulder a brace, why cant you have a stock on the gun?


1. The NRA wasn't as strong or influential in 1934, only starting political action because of the NFA.
2. Here's a list of a few NRA cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Litigation
And they haven't don't much since either. :thumbup:
 
Lets see, the ATF says no, you cant. Then says, yes, you can. So which is it? They did say both.

A "pistol" with a brace that "can be shouldered" by the ATF's own admission, is no different than a SBR with a stock. So why wouldn't you take them to court over it? If you can shoulder a brace, why cant you have a stock on the gun?



And they haven't don't much since either. :thumbup:

Sadly if this was ever taken to court I have to guess it would be a HUGE pile of cash and years in court. If someone really wanted to spend the mountain of cash it would take to get it to the SCOTUS who knows if they would even take it. If they did god only knows how they would rule. I have to guess this is why the Fed's have so far kind of left it alone. My range has long had a few signs saying any AR, AK's and such even if pistols, they have to see it and OK it before you shoot. Have to guess they want to make sure no one is shooting one in a caliber they do not allow. When I made my first Casper AR pistol with a brace I was wondering if they would say anything. Only comment was "nice". I have often seen other shooters watching me, acting like they were curious. Any who approach me are offered to try. Everyone who has been brave enough to ask had a big smile after trying. I have seen some video of ways to use a single point sling and the buffer tube with no brace that looks pretty damn fun. If they take the brace I will sadly get rid of it and try this route. At least till they take the AR's completely :fire:
 
One can also buy a brace for a glock. I have thought of a glock with RMR and a brace. I am worried as to how long they will be legal. So far the democratic threats against the 2nd amendment have not gotten through the senate and we have a good supreme court balance.

upload_2021-3-21_18-38-18.png
 
Lets see, the ATF says no, you cant. Then says, yes, you can. So which is it? They did say both.
Good grief man..........of course they issued conflicting letters, that's typical when you reverse your opinion.
AGAIN (I've repeated that waaaaay too many times in this thread) If you read the portion of the ATF's most current response to "arm braces" you have your answer.
If you have to ask "which is it?" it's obvious you just refuse to read what ATF actually says.

A "pistol" with a brace that "can be shouldered" by the ATF's own admission, is no different than a SBR with a stock.
Horsehockey!
It's one thing to miswrite, misunderstand or heck, just be plain ignorant of the facts.....but that isn't the case here. You continue to make comments that are clearly not true and not remotely accurate. While you may see little or no difference in the construction or usage.........ATF does.
AGAIN, a shoulder stock is not the same as an arm brace and vice versa.



So why wouldn't you take them to court over it?
For what??????????
What's the PROBLEM with "arm braces"? ..........nothing. In fact, it's a great thing that ATF determined that THEY WERE NOT a shoulder stock to begin with.
Let's get this straight......you want the NRA to sue ATF because ATF determined "arm braces" did not make a pistol an SBR? Think about why no Second Amendment advocate would spend more than two seconds before coming to the conclusion that a lawsuit is not only not needed.........but flat out STUPID. Please tell us what grounds the NRA would have to sue the ATF over their "arm brace" determinations.



If you can shoulder a brace, why cant you have a stock on the gun?
AGAIN, federal law since 1934 is why. You should know that.
Attach a shoulder stock to a pistol creates a short barreled rifle if the bbl length is less than 16" or the OAL is less than 26". That isn't new, it didn't change, the "arm brace determination by ATF didn't change that law.............AGAIN, nothing changed.



And they haven't don't much since either. :thumbup:
Yet more than any other gun rights organization.
 
Braced pistols have their place. I thought they were cooked up BS sandwiches for the longest time until I saw one in action. Yes it looks kinda like a stock. Yes it can be shouldered like a stock. No it is not a stock.

The Banshee is one of the absolute best available by all reports. Personally I think that one could rather easily build one as a clone with some minor changes that fit the owners tastes a little better, and do it for a lot less money and have it in hand a whole lot faster, but the Banshee still is a very well built gun.

To the point many folks make and I had made the mistake of early on, is looking at them as a gimmick or as pointless. They are far from it. They maintain the light weight and small (relative) profile that a pistol has but make it more accurately shootable. Jack that brace up against your arm and give it a try. It will take some getting used to but you can quickly get repeatable hits by anchoring the rear of the gun against something. It’s no different than using a kisser button for archery, it’s a physical item that orientates the whole package and helps to be consistent. If you want to see it in action find a person with poor use of their arms or a kid who hasn’t got the strength or ability to be steady and just watch. They were originally designed for handicap folks but they absolutely serve a purpose with general population, and that is hard to argue once you see it work. I put one on a contender recently for that purpose. My middle daughter is tiny for her age and can’t handle even a youth rifle due to weight and length of pull, can barely use a crickett rifle properly at almost 9 years old. She will now get to use a 223AI and possibly a 30-30 barrel on my stainless frame. She can very realistically hunt this year where before I would have guessed she would have to be about 15 to be able to physically handle even the smallest rifles. Whether the brace hits an arm, a cheek, or a shoulder doesn’t matter provided it is consistent or at least allows a consistent sight picture.
 
All of mine seem to be capable of the same accuracy as my 16" guns at 100 yards.
I shot the group on the badge on the hat from a rest at 100 with one of my 10.5" guns using a 4moa red dot. That insignia measures about 1" x1.5".

And yet, mine isn't as accurate as the carbine. Sorry, I'm just the average guy, shooting the average gun.
 
I guess I'll have to ask elsewhere for answers to my original post questions.

Sidebar discussions happen. You tend to get used to them. CMMG makes quality stuff. But their full firearms tend to be overpriced for what they are. Which is why I recommended building your own. You typically spend less money in the long run when you build your own AR. And you get exactly what you want instead of starting with brand build X and swapping out parts. The important caveat is pistol caliber carbine ARs tend to use a lot of proprietary parts. A bolt from PSA may not work in a receiver from CMMG, things like that. They are not nearly as standardized compared to the AR15.
 
remember the 5.56 STARTS working in about 10,5 " and it was designed to be about optimum in 20" of barrel. That said a 16" barrel or a slightly shorter barrel with a permanent muzzle device mounted to bring it to 16" is only a few inches longer than a 10-11" barrel + muzzle device and it allows mid length gas system and any dang stock you want, along with less blast and more velocity ! IMHO the braced pistol is a niche gun for special uses.
 
IMHO, best thing since sliced bread!

CZ%20Scorpion%2003.jpg

In particular, this version of the SB Tactical brace has become my favorite. I had three Shockwaves like the one on the Scorpion above and stopped using them.

003.jpg


Want to get someone in trouble? This is how it starts.......Because nitpicking keeps folks from losing their gun rights forever.
How is it going to get someone in trouble?
 
I've been evaluating braced pistols and would like to hear from you guys out there in THR land. I've watched a few you tube videos of the Banshee from CMMG. I'm thinking with the current assault on guns by politicians, I should get one soon as they might not be available in the future. CMMG posts a 20 week delay on shipping. What can you tell me about braced pistols in general and the Banshee in particular? I'll appreciate your help.

My wife has had spinal surgery and some nerve damage. The sbt brace on her scorpion has made the pistol a joy to shoot again. We've watched the law and if things change we will pay the freight to follow the law. Without the brace she wouldn't get three mags through it before she tires out.

I have no experience with any other. Really enjoy it.

The niece's love shooting it when they visit.

20191214_082702.jpg
 
remember the 5.56 STARTS working in about 10,5 " and it was designed to be about optimum in 20" of barrel. That said a 16" barrel or a slightly shorter barrel with a permanent muzzle device mounted to bring it to 16" is only a few inches longer than a 10-11" barrel + muzzle device and it allows mid length gas system and any dang stock you want, along with less blast and more velocity ! IMHO the braced pistol is a niche gun for special uses.
That is why for my brace AR pistols I use either 300 blackout or 7.62x39 for shorter barrel guns. The powder burn is more efficient. The 7.62x39 seems to be more powerful than the 300 blackout, but in a short barrel with close to full loads the increased powder charge of excombloc ammo has quite a blast.
 
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I've been evaluating braced pistols and would like to hear from you guys out there in THR land. I've watched a few you tube videos of the Banshee from CMMG. I'm thinking with the current assault on guns by politicians, I should get one soon as they might not be available in the future. CMMG posts a 20 week delay on shipping. What can you tell me about braced pistols in general and the Banshee in particular? I'll appreciate your help.

I've assembled several Palmetto State Armory (PSA) AR15 pistol kits. They work just fine and these days are about 1/3 the cost of a name brand AR pistol. If I were you, I'd either get a pistol kit from PSA w/ a stripped lower or a complete upper and complete lower from PSA.

Complete pistol kits (minus stripped lower):
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/pistol-kits.html?product_list_order=price_asc

A couple examples of complete Pistol Uppers:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...itride-upper-with-bcg-ch-flat-dark-earth.html

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...upper-with-bcg-charging-handle-516446192.html

A couple of examples of complete lowers:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...e-pistol-lower-no-magazine-fde-516447176.html
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar15-complete-moe-ept-sba3-lower-5165448150.html

Another option - buy a complete AR pistol from PSA:
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/ar15-guns/pistols.html?product_list_order=price_asc

One of my PSA AR15 pistols with Dead Air Nomad-L suppressor:
index.php

Receiver on this one is an Anderson also know in some circles as a "poverty pony."
 
remember the 5.56 STARTS working in about 10,5 " and it was designed to be about optimum in 20" of barrel. That said a 16" barrel or a slightly shorter barrel with a permanent muzzle device mounted to bring it to 16" is only a few inches longer than a 10-11" barrel + muzzle device and it allows mid length gas system and any dang stock you want, along with less blast and more velocity ! IMHO the braced pistol is a niche gun for special uses.

10"-12" barrels are a lot more appealing when you run a suppressor. The overall length and balance of a 16" barrel with a small muzzle device is just fine, but when you add 5"-7" of can weighing at least 12 ounces, they get less maneuverable and less balanced.
 
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