Why did historical molds have roundball?

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gtrgy888

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Hi all,

What are your theories for why historical lead molds included both roundball and conical cutouts? What was the intended purpose of shooting lead roundball out of cap and ball sixguns? Does anyone have supporting documents that write about this? It’s one of those nagging questions now that I’ve been loading conicals which seem to make my gun more capable with less powder.

My current theory is that the choices of conical and ball may have been provided to help balance availability of lead and powder. When powder is running low, cast conicals. When lead is running low, cast roundballs.
 
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Your theory certainly makes sense.
There's probably other factors too.
The fact that the guns were being sold to people who lived on the frontier, that 2 bullet options allowed for people to test accuracy and ballistics in their individual gun to suit their needs, whether for hunting or self defense.
The ball was a traditional projectile since the beginning of firearms with the earliest molds being made from soapstone.
The original Colt Paterson ring rifle only came with a single cavity mold which was for a round ball.
A Colt Paterson revolving ring rifle gang mold was comprised of 8 cavities for casting only round balls.
Adding a conical bullet to later molds was possibly an attempt to make a man stopper, or to at least obtain better penetration.
The Texas Paterson .36 revolver only had a single cavity round ball mold and those were used to shoot indians.
And the .28 Paterson also only came with single cavity round ball mold.
Maybe the question should be why did Colt include a conical with their mold and not why they included round balls, since round balls were their original intended projectiles.

1. Gang mold --->>> https://www.morphyauctions.com/jame...odel-ring-lever-rifle-gang-bullet-mold-40322/

2. Case rifle set --->>> https://www.morphyauctions.com/jame...-paterson-first-model-ring-lever-rifle-58365/

3. Texas Paterson Mold --->>> https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/72/2130/bullet-mold-for-a-colt-paterson-revolver

4. .28 Paterson Mold --->>> https://www.prices4antiques.com/Amm...aterson-Revolver-No-1-28-Caliber-B179599.html

Some of the original military cartridge loadings are listed here: --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nal-charges-for-cap-and-ball-revolvers.66499/

Perhaps military contracts helped to spur the development and use of conicals in Colt revolvers and their inclusion in Colt molds.
IMO further research may be warranted in that direction.
 
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Round for plinking, target practice, small game etc.
Conical when hunting bigger game or when the shot really mattered.

Excess melted lead would deform in a pouch less as round ball too.

I dont know, just throwing it out there.

As an aside, i wonder if the armies of WWI considered actual ball ammo for their curved trench rifles? With round ball, you could have a seriously curved barrel. Tippman made a curved barrel for one of their paintball guns. The curve was at the breech, and flattened out as it progressed towards the muzzle. This imparted a forward spin, which dramatically increased the accuracy and nearly doubled the range of the factory barrel.
 
Enough difference of opinion that "one mold fits all". ? Easier to just produce one mold, then to figure out how many of each to make and supply with the gun?

Did these molds come with the gun? If so, then more cost effective to supply the combination mold, then two molds. ?

Ball for small game, economy of lead? Slug for shooting people, or maybe a deer? But my money is on making one mold with two cavities, was cheaper than supplying two different molds. And less inventory for those far away gunsmiths or trading posts, and general stores. If you stocked 25 ball molds, and 25 slug molds, and the ball molds sold out, but no one wanted the slug mold, you'd be stuck with them. ?
 
Bullet weight and conservation of lead? Aren't conicals a bit heavier and use more lead? That's my guess.
 
That would be on ancient Old Timer! He be like 150 years old!

I mean, there was this colt at a pawn shop here right? George, the owner paid like $150 for it, but it was at least 100 years old. Nickel plated in .45 LC, black powder only, DA only. He called colt, and they were able to provide a copy of the papers detailing where it was sent, what base and all. Turns out it's milsurp, and Fort Bliss was able to trace who it was issued to and all. Just saying, they may have the answer.
 
Round ball was the established projectile. Conicals were the new fangled abominations of the hipster generation.

When the 1847 Colt Walkers were issued with moulds for the Picket style conical, there were alleged instances of the bullet being loaded point down because that's what appeared to make sense. There was no internet, no hook and bullet press. Conicals were new and different and not necessarily widely accepted.
 
Ha, that kind of reminds me, kind of like the FMJ vs. Hollow Point thing. I prefer a heavy FMJ or round nose lead bullet (with metplat) in a modern gun, for more penetration. Back in the day, some would like the bullet or conical for that reason. I'd probably be one of them guys. But most guys in our current hipster generation like a light hollow point for more velocity and instant smackdown. Kind of a penetration vs expansion thing. They would be the round-ball guys. So, perhaps it's the same difference, but reversed, only a couple of hundred years later. ?
 
I believe the history of the conical goes back to Napoleon and Capt. Minnie in his army. The French were pounding pieces of lead down the barrel and shooting at the opposing force. After the battle ended for a day, a truce would be called and the wounded would be collected as well a pieces of lead to be re-used in the next battle. Capt. Minnie discovered that many pieces of lead formed a conical shape. He developed what we call a minnie ball. That is a rounded projectile with a hollow base a little smaller that said caliber. This made it easier and faster to load and the hollow base would expand and obturate upon firing and seal the bore.
 
I believe the history of the conical goes back to Napoleon and Capt. Minnie in his army. The French were pounding pieces of lead down the barrel and shooting at the opposing force. After the battle ended for a day, a truce would be called and the wounded would be collected as well a pieces of lead to be re-used in the next battle. Capt. Minnie discovered that many pieces of lead formed a conical shape. He developed what we call a minnie ball. That is a rounded projectile with a hollow base a little smaller that said caliber. This made it easier and faster to load and the hollow base would expand and obturate upon firing and seal the bore.

Not quite so far back. The French overwhelming fielded smoothbore muskets during the Revolution and subsequent wars ending at Waterloo. In fact, the French did not produce a rifle during that period.

Colonel Minie invented the eponymous hollow base bullet in 1846.
 
From what I found, the 1847 Colt Walker was used with Picket bullets which were shaped somewhat like a corn kernal or candy corn, flat on the bottom and pointed on top.
Loading those bullets backwards were said to be responsible for blowing up some of the Walker cylinders.
The Picket bullet already existed around 1830 - 1835 when sporting rifles were being made to be loaded with them, for the same reason that they were eventually used in the Walkers, because they could be effective for much longer distances than round ball out to 200 yards or so.
The Picket rifles could be any caliber from .38, .40, up to .50 and 54.
Because the bullets already existed when the Walker was designed, they were probably easy to adapt for use in the Walker revolver.
And in rifles, they could be loaded naked or patched, either cloth or paper patched.
They were said to be more accurate than round balls as well as being more lethal.
And some of the rifles were intended to fire either balls or Picket bullets depending on the need.
The existence of Picket bullets is well documented.
The only remaining question is whether the military ordered two cavity molds or whether Colt produced them on their own for a later model such as the Dragoon.
Perhaps someone can help determine that.
After all, the Walker was designed and intended for military use by Capt. Walker, and it may be mentioned in places how his men ended up having Picket bullets.

I have a lot of sources with tidbits of the information that I'm attempting to describe here.
I wanted to try to answer the question of why a round ball and conical were provided within the same mold.
And I figured that one way to proceed to answer that question would be to determine which revolver may have first used conicals.
Even if the Paterson were used with conicals, the chances are that they were used with Picket bullets because those were the ones that were available in those days.
They were a simple enough design for molds to easily be made in just about any size.
The only part of the Picket bullet that touched the bore was the solid base of the bullet.

1. https://www.gunandgame.com/threads/the-45cal-170gr-picket-conical-bullet.137916/
Some history about the 170 grain Picket bullet.
3picketloads-jpg.jpg
bullets-1-jpg.jpg

flask-jpg.jpg
2. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/picket-bullet-mold-cavity-civil-war-133994991
.38 caliber civil war era Picket mold with round ball.

3. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/civil-war-era-brass-bullet-mold-1796198073
civil war mold 2 cone shaped Picket bullets and one round ball.

4. https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-mold-and-loading-tools-.cfm?gun_id=100980771
.40 caliber Picket Sporting rifle made in Wisconsin by a gunsmith making guns between 1850 - 1878.
The package included a Picket bullet mold and a box or antique bullets.

5. https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2729.0
Informative thread about Picket rifles, how and why they were loaded with Picket bullets.

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Walker
A Wiki page about the 1847 Colt Walker and Capt Walker who was issued 2 Walkers, he died carrying them in the Mexican American War the same year that he received them.
Maybe Colt supplied a combination mold for them.
Can anyone help find out?
 
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Pedersoli made a reproduction single cavity Picket bullet mold. --->>> https://www.coltforum.com/threads/repro-bullet-mold-for-walker-colt.64905/
Dixie calls this a Walker mold. --->>> https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...1/product_name/CA0907+.44+Walker+Bullet+Mould

The Pedersoli mold is what mec was using in his range reports and history in item #1 in my post above.
mec called it the Pedersoli "needle nose bullet". --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...st-walker-needle-niose-picket-bullets.752195/
I found this image online:
Dragoon_bullets.jpg

And then I found this authentic mold that appears to have been made for the Hartford Whitneyville Dragoon Transitional Model which are sometimes called "transitional Walkers" along with an index of photos of an actual Colt 2 cavity mold that's rated as extremely rare.
Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon Revolver
Between the Walker and the First model Dragoon, around 240 improved models were produced, barrel length 7 1/2 inch, cylinder 2 3/16 inch. Their general appearance was similar to that of the production Dragoon models. These were produced between late in 1847 and 1848, serial number range approximately 1100 (the last civilian Walker) through about 1340 (the first Dragoon First Model). These are sometimes called "Transition Walker" revolvers, and were made in two frame variations. The earlier pattern was a Walker carry-over with a cut-out in the back to accommodate the round contour of the grips and the second was straight-backed. Another distinctive detail were the very slender "Slim Jim" grips. Note: Due to serial number gaps between the "Transition" model and the First Dragoon, of which Colt later "backfilled", as well as the details of the production and delivery of the Second Government Contract, The "fluck Dragoon" was erroneously derived.
--->>> https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Colt_Dragoon_Revolver

You'll want to see these images which are also displayed in the next 2 posts.

1. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...model-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-6.jpg

2. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...model-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-5.jpg

3. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...model-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-6.jpg

4. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...model-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-7.jpg

Authentication:
5. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...model-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-9.jpg

6. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-10.jpg

7. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-11.jpg

8. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-12.jpg

9. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-13.jpg

10. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-14.jpg

This rating indicates that this mold is "extremely rare"
11. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-15.jpg

12. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-16.jpg

13. http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...odel-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas-17.jpg

Here's the photo index as a reference. --->>> http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...irst-model-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas/

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/image...irst-model-dragoon-percussion-revolver-texas/
 
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I'm uploading the photos of the mold to the data base for posterity.
Note that the source states "final evolution of the Walker conical."
IDK if the original Walker came with 1 or 2 separate single molds, or a single two cavity mold.
Perhaps someone can help look for original Walker mold or molds being auctioned to see if they were any different from this.

1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg 9.jpg 10.jpg
 
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This is the only known cased Walker in existence, and it's named the "Danish Sea Captain Walker." --->>> https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/73/60/cased-colt-model-colt-civilian-walker-revolver
It came with a single cavity conical mold and also has a handwritten note by Sam Colt which is shown in a video at the 2:43 mark.
The note says in effect:
"This pistol is a correct sample of the pistols furnished to the US Government with the Texas Ranger conical by Cap. Walker."


A 2007 Gun Auction listing shows an Italian reproduction of the Walker brass conical mold. --->>> https://www.gunauction.com/buy/8050797

8609d34f79a9b61fce05d6ee0fc48685.jpg 1d00ca7ba1e1671f3cf2102ceef2846a.jpg 896d16fcee18fcb7eed776a702e1bba8.jpg
 
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It appears that the US Gov't, Captain Walker and the Texas Rangers wanted conicals to fight the Mexicans.
But perhaps more importantly to fight the indians.
The Texas-Indian wars started with the first settlers and lasted until 1875.
Wikipedia entries state that the use of revolvers turned the tide of the indian wars to the benefit of the settlers.
During the civil war, settlers were pushed back over 100 miles by the indians.

1821–1844

Up until the introduction of repeating rifles and revolvers, weapons and tactics were definitely on the side of the Plains Indians, most especially the Comanche. It was not until the Battle of Bandera Pass, where revolvers were used for the first time against the Comanche, that the Texans began to gain a clear military advantage due to superior weaponry. Despite that disadvantage, it was disease and pure numbers which probably ended the Plains tribes.

1844–1875

By 1860, there were fewer than 8,000 Indians, and 600,000 Non-Indian colonists in Texas. The Texans further had access to repeating rifles and revolvers. Many military historians believe the defining moment in the Texas–Indian Wars came with the introduction of the revolver. In any event, pure numbers, better weapons, and brutal starvation tactics ended Plains Indians hold on to their homeland.
-----------------
The half-century struggle between the Plains tribes and the Texans became particularly intense after the Spanish, and then Mexicans, left power in Texas. The Republic of Texas, which had increasing settlement by European Americans, and the United States opposed the tribes. Their war with the Plains Indians was characterized by deep animosity, slaughter on both sides, and, in the end, near-total conquest of the Indians.
The Comanche were known as fierce warriors, with a reputation for looting, burning, murdering, and kidnapping as far south as Mexico City. When Sul Ross rescued Cynthia Ann Parker at Pease River, he observed that this event would be felt in every family in Texas, as every one had lost someone in the Indian Wars.[2] During the American Civil War, when the US Army was unavailable to protect the frontier, the Comanche and Kiowa pushed white settlements back more than 100 miles along the Texas frontier.

Texas-Indian Wars: --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas–Indian_wars#1844–1875

Comanche power peaked in the 1840s when they conducted large-scale raids hundreds of miles into Mexico proper, while also warring against the Anglo-Americans and Tejanos who had settled in independent Texas. Their power declined as epidemics of cholera and smallpox inflicted severe casualties on their population, and as continuous pressure from the expanding population of the United States forced them to cede most of their tribal lands.
Commanche Wars: --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche_Wars

Map showing Commanche lands during the 1800's
Comancheria.jpg
 
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Those super-pointy Picket bullets look like they would be hard to seat in the cylinder without canting them. Did the rammers, or seating plugs (?)("plunger"?) on the rammer have a pointy recess to match the bullet?
 
The .36 with its puny lightweight round ball is a sorry stopper to be sure.

But when loaded with a heavy conical things start to change quite a bit in its favor. A fully loaded .36 loaded with wadcutter hunting style conicals is not much behind a .38 special in performance.

The .44 is a beast by comparison however, and effective even with the economical roundballs loaded.
 
The .36 with its puny lightweight round ball is a sorry stopper to be sure.

But when loaded with a heavy conical things start to change quite a bit in its favor. A fully loaded .36 loaded with wadcutter hunting style conicals is not much behind a .38 special in performance.

The .44 is a beast by comparison however, and effective even with the economical roundballs loaded.

I get just 2 boards less penetration with .36 roundball than with 140 grain flatpoint conical. Either will do the job. I’ll be posting board test results soon.
 
I get just 2 boards less penetration with .36 roundball than with 140 grain flatpoint conical. Either will do the job. I’ll be posting board test results soon.

All things being equal, bigger and heavier bullets tend to work better.
 
Those super-pointy Picket bullets look like they would be hard to seat in the cylinder without canting them. Did the rammers, or seating plugs (?)("plunger"?) on the rammer have a pointy recess to match the bullet?
IIRC it was mentioned somewhere that the ram did have a deep recess but without describing its shape.
However the bullets were still difficult to load perfectly straight which led to many being loaded backwards for convenience.
There's an RIA Walker video embedded on this page: --->>> https://americanshootingjournal.com/the-worlds-most-powerful-pistol-1847-walker-revolver/
The video mentions the difficulties loading the bullets, and how Walker wanted it be able to kill a horse or a man, but especially a horse, which would seem to be easier to do with a conical.

This NRA museum video also provides some details about Walkers original letters to Colt regarding a few other features that Walker wanted incorporated into the gun.
 
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