AR-180? I am intrigued! And questions.

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Gun4Fun90

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So sorry if I seem uninformed and a little rabley and over excited but I only realize this existed about an hour ago and have since been on google reading as much as I can about it.

So I recently saw a video about an AR-180 replica out of Canada called the WK-180 and was very intrigued as I had no idea there was a such thing as an AR-180 before today. So I went to google to learn about this apparent abomination and now I must own one!

During my research I learned of another option for an AR-180 clone from brownells called the BRN-180.

I think I like the brownells BRN-180 more from what I can tell for the most part. Plus you can just buy the upper for the brownells version and use it with a standered ar-15 lower which is appealing to me as I live in Washington DC and registering a lower is a headache and a half I try to avoid when possible. (Don’t vote in anti gun politicians keep your state free)

However I like the charging handle on the WK-180 more then the charging handle on the BRN-180 by a significant amount! Yes this is purely an ascetic preference but ya know nothing about this is a logical decision.

do you know if it is possible to swap out the charging handle on the BRN-180 and if so how I would go about finding compatible replacement options?

Thankyou so much for any help you can provide,

sincerely,

Guns4Fun
 
No - the WK-180 has a left side charging handle - the BRN-180 isn't even cut on that side of the receiver.

There are some aftermarket charging handles for the BRN-180 though. They're out of stock right now but here are some:

https://ar180parts.com/product/brn-180-charging-handle/

Part of the reason for the weird "dog-leg" charging handle is the dust cover - if your hand is at the level of the bolt, then the dust cover will hit your hand and not open properly when hand charging the gun. This can be a problem even with the stock handle if you grip it too low. The original AR-180 and the BRN-180 solve that by putting a bend on the handle so that you can grip it overhand and higher. The WK-180 moves the charging handle to the other side. If you keep it on the right side though and go to a straight handle, you're going to have to nudge the bolt back a little to open the dust cover, let it fall, and then charge back the gun rather than doing it in one smooth motion.

I will say that I do REALLY like the BRN-180. I've got the 18" model (would have preferred 16" but the 18" was on sale) with the official BRN-180 lower (I used it on a regular AR-15 lower prior to the BRN-180 lower coming out).

The bolt cycles just so much smoother without that annoying "THRONG" spring sound that an AR-15 makes. Plus I think a short-stroke piston is just a better system than DI.
 
DocRock said:
I wasn't aware that the Kodiak 180 was available in the US. Are you sure it is?
Click to expand...

No idea but generally where there is a will there is a way. (But often that way includes bastardized something beautiful and making something horrific)

either way right now I am leaning more towards the BRN-180 but I like the charging Handel on the WK-180 way more which is why I asked if it was possible to swap out the charging handle.
 
mgmorden said:
No - the WK-180 has a left side charging handle - the BRN-180 isn't even cut on that side of the receiver.

There are some aftermarket charging handles for the BRN-180 though. They're out of stock right now but here are some:

https://ar180parts.com/product/brn-180-charging-handle/

Part of the reason for the weird "dog-leg" charging handle is the dust cover - if your hand is at the level of the bolt, then the dust cover will hit your hand and not open properly when hand charging the gun. This can be a problem even with the stock handle if you grip it too low. The original AR-180 and the BRN-180 solve that by putting a bend on the handle so that you can grip it overhand and higher. The WK-180 moves the charging handle to the other side. If you keep it on the right side though and go to a straight handle, you're going to have to nudge the bolt back a little to open the dust cover, let it fall, and then charge back the gun rather than doing it in one smooth motion.

I will say that I do REALLY like the BRN-180. I've got the 18" model (would have preferred 16" but the 18" was on sale) with the official BRN-180 lower (I used it on a regular AR-15 lower prior to the BRN-180 lower coming out).

The bolt cycles just so much smoother without that annoying "THRONG" spring sound that an AR-15 makes. Plus I think a short-stroke piston is just a better system than DI.
Click to expand...

hmmm this is good information you have given me some things to think about.

#1 the reason the charging handle is strange is to clear the dust cover.

#2 the BRN is a right side only charging Handle vs the WK is apparently ambi

dose this change my thoughts on which one I like more?

also another question is if I do go with the BRN what caliber do I go with the 5.56 or their new .300 blackout?

so much to think about.... I promised I wouldn’t buy any more guns in 2020 but it’s 2021 yay!

good to start out the year with something totally impractical like this! :)
 
Brownells is at (or incredibly near) the end of the production run of the BRN-180s, so your option may be the .300BO, or to have to go seek out the one in the secondary market.

The Original AR-18 was meant to be built using sheet metal components as a "lesser technology" AR-15 alternative. The twin rail recoil spring has been used on a number of other firearms.
The semi-auto only version was labeled the AR-180. the bent-up bolt was meant to be high enough to be operated over the top of the receiver from the left (this was in an era before optics being common, too).

The number one headache with either AR-18 or AR-180 was the proprietary magazine. The re-created ArmaLite briefly had an AR-180B which used an AR-15 style lower to be able to use STANAG AR magazines. It dropped the folding buttstock, which kind of killed the public appeal (mind it was during the AWB, when such things were banned).

The number one thing the BRN-180 lower offered was a hinged stock--which was pretty nice. If you put it on an AR-15 lower, you needed the hinging adapter for that function, which added a couple hundred to the price.

In many ways the BRN-180 is the best answer to "Should I get a gas or a pistol AR?"

I'd not hold out much hope of seeing a Kodiak on this side of the border, what with the new Canadian ban in place.
 
I have two original AR-180's, a Costa Mesa and a Howa, which I bought during the hiatus (in the early 70's) when the Colt AR-15 was temporarily pulled off the market. In general, the AR-180 has an inferior construction (spot-welded sheet metal) compared to the AR-15. The final manufacturer, Sterling, was even worse than the other two. Two points in its favor are the folding stock and the piston action, and a point against it is the proprietary magazine. Anyway, I wouldn't buy one now.

If you want a really good AR-15 alternative, consider the Korean Daewoo K2. There are a few still floating around on the secondary market.
 
AlexanderA said:
I have two original AR-180's, a Costa Mesa and a Howa, which I bought during the hiatus (in the early 70's) when the Colt AR-15 was temporarily pulled off the market. In general, the AR-180 has an inferior construction (spot-welded sheet metal) compared to the AR-15. The final manufacturer, Sterling, was even worse than the other two. Two points in its favor are the folding stock and the piston action, and a point against it is the proprietary magazine. Anyway, I wouldn't buy one now.

If you want a really good AR-15 alternative, consider the Korean Daewoo K2. There are a few still floating around on the secondary market.
Click to expand...

I don’t really want a practical “good AR-15 alternative” I just kind of want it for funnzies and because it’s kind of interesting. Like about 98% of my purchasing decisions practicality is not really the main part of the equation and it’s not really intended to be functional. Sure the other 2% might actually be seen as good practical decisions with legitimate purposes and functions, but realistically you don’t need that many different guns to fill most practical needs. Just a couple should fill any actual “needs” you have.

but buying interesting stuff can be fun. Real talk though only real reason I am interested is that I think it looks neat and I find it interesting, ya know not well known, good conversation started ect...
 
CapnMac said:
Brownells is at (or incredibly near) the end of the production run of the BRN-180s, so your option may be the .300BO, or to have to go seek out the one in the secondary market.

The Original AR-18 was meant to be built using sheet metal components as a "lesser technology" AR-15 alternative. The twin rail recoil spring has been used on a number of other firearms.
The semi-auto only version was labeled the AR-180. the bent-up bolt was meant to be high enough to be operated over the top of the receiver from the left (this was in an era before optics being common, too).

The number one headache with either AR-18 or AR-180 was the proprietary magazine. The re-created ArmaLite briefly had an AR-180B which used an AR-15 style lower to be able to use STANAG AR magazines. It dropped the folding buttstock, which kind of killed the public appeal (mind it was during the AWB, when such things were banned).

The number one thing the BRN-180 lower offered was a hinged stock--which was pretty nice. If you put it on an AR-15 lower, you needed the hinging adapter for that function, which added a couple hundred to the price.

In many ways the BRN-180 is the best answer to "Should I get a gas or a pistol AR?"

I'd not hold out much hope of seeing a Kodiak on this side of the border, what with the new Canadian ban in place.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that Brownells is not going to continue producing their BRN-180? I’m not debating this; I just had never heard that before. I understand that some manufacturers will produce items in batches periodically. The BRN-180 seems like it is a good seller and likely accounts for decent revenue for Brownells.
 
CapnMac said:
Brownells is at (or incredibly near) the end of the production run of the BRN-180s, ....
Click to expand...
The Brownell's BRN-180's actually haven't been selling very well if their efforts to push it are any indication. When they're gone, they may very well be gone. But that leaves the question of after-market support and parts availability up in the air. I briefly thought about getting one last summer but decided against.
 
wiscoaster said:
if their efforts to push it are any indication
Click to expand...
Some of that is in the definitions.
These are niche items. Brownells only made up about 500 each of the the three AR-10 variants they had out.
These are not big runs of product,

It's like the reproduction STG-44--everyone wants one, but only about 250-300 are going to fork over $2500-3000 for one to fill that need.
 
Very interesting. I wonder if items were in stock if it would impact sales. Specifically, it seems like Brownells gets BRN-180s in stock and then they sell out quick. I wonder if they were in stock more frequently if people would be more inclined to impulse buy and sales would be better. By being out of stock, especially without a back order option, I suspect people who have money burning a hole in their wallet or an it that they need a gun to scratch simply buy something else readily available. Additionally, since it appears that Brownells sells the uppers and lowers separately, I believe it dissuades people from buying even further. I understand that you can use any AR lower, but for those who want either the BRN-180 cut lower or at least a lower made by Brownells, I believe it is a more appealing buy when one can order the upper and lower at the same time.
 
I have an AR180 with about 100 rounds through it and an AR180B with aluminum spuds nodak lower and ACE skeleton stock for shooting (original plastic lower stored in the closet). Both phenomenal weapons and somewhat unique. I love the brn180 but nothing beats an original. If funzies and original are your goal I say get an AR180. Get the B model and an aluminum lower if you plan to shoot it a lot. They are fun, reliable and fairly accurate and will definitely attract eyeballs at the range. Most former owners will tell you how much they wish they'd kept theirs.
 
I got a Howa AR-180 back in the 70s. A little modification of 30 round M-16 mags and the rifle rode under the headrests in my patrol car for years. Came in handy several times.
Rode in the gun rack in my pickup on the ranch for 20 years.
I have no idea how many varmints bit the dust due to that gun.
It’s still in my gun safe ready for business here in town in case it is needed.
 
I had a Costa Mesa 180 for several years. When actually using it, it reminded me of my 80's issue M16A1, both in firing it and performance. It was an interesting vintage gun, but other than a sling, it really wasn't set up for any modifications. Also, original 180 repair parts are unobtainium, and I either needed the proprietary mags or I could modify GI M16 mags- about 50% of the time I got it right, the rest I didn't, and they ended up being AR15 mags with an extra slot that did nothing. I decided to get rid of it a few years back and traded for something more useful.
 
The Sterlings are just as good as the Costa Mesa or Howa. The Sterling got a bad rap because the Brits used the black paint on them like they did other firearms. One thing for sure is the painted guns don't rust and it's durable. I bought mine back around 1982. The AR180 came with a 1:12 twist and doesn't shoot heavier bullets well.
 
SunnySlopes said:
I thought you guys were talking about this, at first.
Click to expand...


Many years ago my father mentioned getting to play with one of those at work and he loved it. Los Angeles County never did go with the idea though. He never really expected the Hughes amendment to become a thing, so he kept off getting one until it was too late.
 
carbine85 said:
The Sterlings are just as good as the Costa Mesa or Howa. The Sterling got a bad rap because the Brits used the black paint on them like they did other firearms.
Click to expand...
I tend to disagree on the quality of the Sterlings. I already had a Costa Mesa and a Howa when the Sterlings came out, and I was sorely tempted to buy one to complete the collection. But after handling one I was unimpressed by the fit and finish. It just wasn't in the same category as the previous versions. (Which is saying a lot, because the AR-180 design, in general, is already inferior to the AR-15.)

One thing Sterling did well was their steel dual-use AR-15 / AR-180 magazines.Their 40-rounders are still some of the few large-capacity ones that feed reliably. If you find one, you'll have to pay a fortune (just for the magazine).

Also, the Costa Mesa and Howa versions themselves are not the same, quality-wise. I used to think that they were. But when I went to mount optics on the top dovetail, I found that the Howa dovetail was badly skewed and unusable. Since this is spot-welded to the upper receiver, it's not correctable. Also, the Howa came with little knock-out plugs in the notches of the bayonet mount. This was supposed to make the gun "non-military." In fact, the Japanese prohibition on selling "military" guns to nations at war (the U.S. was still involved in Vietnam at the time) ultimately led to the end of Howa production.
 
Agree on Sterlings. Have seen several examples of all three, owned a Howa (with Costa Mesa mags!) which sadly I do not anymore. Howa was +/- as good as CM, Sterling was variable but all I saw were cheap, rattly, and some didn't even run without work. Too bad really.
 
Glenn Berryhill said:
Guns4fun, just out of curiosity, why are you wanting to get something similar but different than AR-15?
Click to expand...

For fun and because it seems interesting. The same reason someone would buy a lever action or a 1911 clone or an m1 grand. They are all great guns but let’s be real if you are getting one in 2021 it’s mostly just for fun and because you find it interesting. If you are simply looking for something for defense or hunting there are better cheaper and more boring options that will do the trick and spare your wallet.


Edit: although it’s gonna have to wait a minute I was in a gun shop the other day and a kimber caught my eye that I am thinking of getting instead first.
 
shoobe01 said:
Agree on Sterlings. Have seen several examples of all three, owned a Howa (with Costa Mesa mags!) which sadly I do not anymore. Howa was +/- as good as CM, Sterling was variable but all I saw were cheap, rattly, and some didn't even run without work. Too bad really.
Click to expand...
All AR180s are loose and rattly. They were built from the same parts and on the same machines. The only real difference is the selector in the Sterling is from the AR18
 
I 100% agree on the Daewoo's. I have owned 4...I sadly only have one but don't plan on ever selling it. (GB Sr banned their import.) It is one of the best EBR's I have ever owned.

If you like the AR-180's you may want to also look at the MPAR 556 that have sadly been discontinued. MSRP was orginally about $1,000 but they are getting collectible. They are heavy but very cool with a left side non-reciprocating charging handle, adjustable head port, AR mag well, the inverted double short piston & of course the folding adjustable stocks. They are based on the AR-180's & is an updated version of the Australian Leader Dynamics T2...which very few made it to the US. I think they are really cool because they are different but still AR based with controls & magazines. Here is an article...

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/18/review-masterpiece-arms-mpar-556-gen-2/
 
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