Defensive rifle, not AR

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Lever action, pump, or external magazine fed bolt action and practice.
 
James Fonteneaux said:
Another thought for consideration. I USED to have a Ruger Scout rifle chambered in .223. Mounted a Vortex scout scope on it. I never was comfortable with the view from the scope, or the rifle choking on rounds. So much the pity, it was a beautiful gun. Maybe the magazine's fault for being adapted to the smaller cartridge. Anyways, I never felt good with it on the range, much less up close. Make sure your optics match your purpose.
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It's unfortunate that Ruger didn't come up with a better .223 magazine set up for that gun.

While the Ruger action will never be considered smooth, my GSR (or Scout as it is called now) does feed .308s from both poly and steel magazines just fine.
 
Regardless of whether the word “hunting” is included in the OP requirement, it is certainly within the purview and interest of the unorganized militia of the United States to be able to hit the target of choice at 400yds...that unorganized militia includes every free adult who is of age.
 
Edit: @chicharrones


This is an awesome rear sight solution.

May I ask you which brand and did you have to have the barrel drilled and tapped, or did it fit into the forward rail holes already there from the factory?
 
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amd6547 said:
Regardless of whether the word “hunting” is included in the OP requirement, it is certainly within the purview and interest of the unorganized militia of the United States to be able to hit the target of choice at 400yds...that unorganized militia includes every free adult who is of age.
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I agree about the unorganized militia. However, the whole theory behind the 2nd Amendment is that the militia is to be as well armed as the regular army. You'll never get to that point without semiautomatic or automatic weapons. The OP's requirement that the gun not be semiautomatic pretty much takes the militia argument off the table. Two further observations:

1. The "constitutional" militia must remain unorganized. Self-organized "militia" groups (such as the ones we've seen in the news lately) run afoul of Presser v. Illinois and lose their constitutional status. So what we're really talking about, as a militia, is an aggregation of individuals.
2. This has little to do with personal defense, as implied in the OP.
 
Frankly the OP is asking a lot from one rifle. 400 yd capable “hunting” rifles have too much recoil and penetration for self defense purposes. What works well for defense isn’t going to be useful at 400 yds.

Also, since two rifles are needed to cover this spectrum the same action should be used for both. My personal choices would, in fact are, Marlin leverguns. 1894 in .357 mag for defense. 1895 in 45/70 for hunting.

You can use 38 spl in the 1894. And, since 400 yd shots are very deliberate one has plenty of time to get “into” the rifle allowing very accurate delivery of the shot.
 
AlexanderA said:
I agree about the unorganized militia. However, the whole theory behind the 2nd Amendment is that the militia is to be as well armed as the regular army. You'll never get to that point without semiautomatic or automatic weapons. The OP's requirement that the gun not be semiautomatic pretty much takes the militia argument off the table. Two further observations:

1. The "constitutional" militia must remain unorganized. Self-organized "militia" groups (such as the ones we've seen in the news lately) run afoul of Presser v. Illinois and lose their constitutional status. So what we're really talking about, as a militia, is an aggregation of individuals.
2. This has little to do with personal defense, as implied in the OP.
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So, your saying that my kar98k and a bandoleer of clipped fmj doesn’t qualify as a rifle for the unorganized militia?
 
amd6547 said:
So, you're saying that my kar98k and a bandoleer of clipped fmj doesn’t qualify as a rifle for the unorganized militia?
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I guess so. Theoretically, militia arms, in the constitutional sense, must be comparable to what the army is carrying. (For example, semiautomatic versions of the army's fully automatic ones would pass muster, whereas guns that the army hasn't issued in 50 years would not.) But note that, under the Heller case, militia weapons aren't the only ones that are protected under the 2nd Amendment. A wide variety of weapons, including your bolt-action Mauser, might be suitable for personal self defense (outside the civic defense implied by the Militia Clause). Now, a 400-yard capability might be important for a civic defense, but it certainly isn't for a personal self defense. It's tough trying to sort all this out.
 
Somebody must have answered the OPs question. He hasn't been back after the first post. If shooting at 400 yards my plain ordinary Ruger 30-06 would be my first choice. Enough bullet for a game round and should take out any man that walks. But for less than 200 yards a lever action 30-30 would do for me. Less than 100 yards my Marlin 9mm carbine would be my choice. Even inside the house its not a bad choice. A shotgun would be better.

I don't think there is going to be an ideal rifle thats good from face to face range out to 400 yards. A battery of rifles sounds like a better idea.
 
imac98374 said:
That rear sight is fantastic. Can I ask who makes it? Did you have to drill/tap for it, or would you use the existing rail mount holes?
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It's a Marble Arms rear sight ramp with quick adjust elevation slider. It is mounted to the existing front holes for the "scout" rail.

Apparently it has been discontinued. Which is probably because the quick adjust elevation slide can withstand centerfire recoil. I tried two of those Marbles sights with the same result each time. Marbles covered the first failed sight under warranty, after that it was on me.

It was a good experiment that needs to be re-done with a different rear sight that can take .308 Winchester recoil. :)
 
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AlexanderA said:
I guess so. Theoretically, militia arms, in the constitutional sense, must be comparable to what the army is carrying. (For example, semiautomatic versions of the army's fully automatic ones would pass muster, whereas guns that the army hasn't issued in 50 years would not.) But note that, under the Heller case, militia weapons aren't the only ones that are protected under the 2nd Amendment. A wide variety of weapons, including your bolt-action Mauser, might be suitable for personal self defense (outside the civic defense implied by the Militia Clause). Now, a 400-yard capability might be important for a civic defense, but it certainly isn't for a personal self defense. It's tough trying to sort all this out.
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Do you have a source for your interpretation of “acceptable” militia weapons?
 
AlexanderA said:
I agree about the unorganized militia. However, the whole theory behind the 2nd Amendment is that the militia is to be as well armed as the regular army. You'll never get to that point without semiautomatic or automatic weapons. The OP's requirement that the gun not be semiautomatic pretty much takes the militia argument off the table.
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From what I've read, it appears that a one or two man sniper team can wreak havoc on conventional military units, essentially tying up large numbers of troops / police, and ultimately provoking them into taking aggressive action against the populace which eventually results in getting said population on the side of the insurgency. It's called assymetric warfare and most decidedly does not require state-of-the art weaponry. Hunting rifles are quite sufficient.
 
For the 400 yard requirement.

77 RL 1985.jpg

For the HD rifle requirement.

red dot 2.jpg

Though I consider a rifle not a great HD choice. That duty around here falls to a 12 gauge 870. With a .38 model 60 as a nightstand gun.
 
WestKentucky said:
Marlin 336. Probably the handiest and fastest action gun I have ever used that’s not a semiauto. People give the 30-30 grief but it’s not a slouch. Next option would be a Remington pump rifle in a light caliber like 223 or 243.
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A 30-30 is not a slouch within its capabilities, but it’s not a 400 yard gun either.
 
I am totally mystified by some of the responses here. Pistol cartridges, 45/70. 400 yards hunting rifle. Really a modern high speed cartridge in a nice bolt action like a typical deer rifle would be just fine. I do know what is the definition of defense is. Maybe a shotgun would be a good choice in addition.
 
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The Remington 7615 pump is garbage. My department went with them as a patrol rifle and started having problems with them from the start. After about four years my department was tired of the problems. Remington made an offer to replace all the 7615s for Bushmaster AR15s at no cost, as long as the department put out any negative reviews on the 7615. It was a win win for my department, turn in junk rifles for new ARs at no cost to the department.
 
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