Loading 45 Colt black powder cartridge- need some help

Driftwood, certain powders do weigh more which is why I asked him if it was weight or volume. He said volume and volume is volume no matter what brand and that was why I responded that it doesn't fit in a Starline case. Now if he had said weight I would not argue because different powders and even humidity affect weight.

I use Starline nickeled cases exclusively for .45 Colt BP loads. I also use a drop tube, because it's attached to my BP measure and I'm too lazy to take it off and put it back on between rifle and handgun loads. I know for a fact that 40 grains by weight of OE 2F will not fit into the case even when poured through the drop tube.

Earlier in this thread someone commented I did not give measurements on my loadings and mostly that is because its irrelevant because I make and shoot mostly my own BP. Real BP is hard to buy for most shooters. Lets face it most shooters are using 777 or pyrodex I just don't see there is enough difference in the real BP products to make that big of a difference. Sometimes I feel its like teenage boys circle jerking over Ford versus Chevy.

damoc said:

Earlier in this thread someone commented I did not give measurements on my loadings and mostly that is because its irrelevant because I make and shoot mostly my own BP. Real BP is hard to buy for most shooters. Lets face it most shooters are using 777 or pyrodex I just don't see there is enough difference in the real BP products to make that big of a difference. Sometimes I feel its like teenage boys circle jerking over Ford versus Chevy.

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Except, you know, for actual measurements, which consistently show high quality BP like Swiss, Schuetzen, and Olde Eynsford to yield considerably higher and more consistent velocities than lesser quality BP.

But I’m sure your home brew is totally awesome. Please keep your autoeroticism to yourself however.

DocRock said:

Except, you know, for actual measurements, which consistently show high quality BP like Swiss, Schuetzen, and Olde Eynsford to yield considerably higher and more consistent velocities than lesser quality BP.

But I’m sure your home brew is totally awesome. Please keep your autoeroticism to yourself however.

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Which you know you haven't been able to buy over the counter in like FOREVER. Not sure how I rubbed you wrong that was not my intent but from me to you OFF.

damoc said:

Which you know you haven't been able to buy over the counter in like FOREVER. Not sure how I rubbed you wrong that was not my intent but from me to you OFF.

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Again, except for the fact that I received five pounds from Powder Inc. last week. You seem to make a lot of unsupported assumptions.

DocRock said:

Again, except for the fact that I received five pounds from Powder Inc. last week. You seem to make a lot of unsupported assumptions.

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Last comment before WE derail the conversation I have NEVER seen real BP in a store EVER THE END

Buy whatever the hell you want.

I was thinking, if you're filling fired brass that has not been full length resized you are probably going to be able to fit more powder in the case compared to a piece of new brass, or a piece of brass that has been full length resized. Especially if the gun that fired the brass has large chambers. Could this be why some people can fit 40 grains and some can't?

damoc said:

Earlier in this thread someone commented I did not give measurements on my loadings and mostly that is because its irrelevant because I make and shoot mostly my own BP. Real BP is hard to buy for most shooters. Lets face it most shooters are using 777 or pyrodex I just don't see there is enough difference in the real BP products to make that big of a difference. Sometimes I feel its like teenage boys circle jerking over Ford versus Chevy.

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There certainly IS a difference. Why do you think all top long range shooters use Swiss or Olde E? I have shot enough and checked velocity and accuracy to know there is a difference. That's why I shoot Olde E mostly in any of my longer range loads I'm wanting accuracy or in certain bores that foul worse to run cleaner and use cheaper powders for my main match CAS load like 45 Schofield, 44wcf, etc. where accuracy and extra fouling doesn't really hurt me.

Plus I like the extra fire and smoke Schutzen gives at cowboy action shoots. It's just a hoot of fun. A friend and I were both shooting 45 Schofield with 28 grains of 2f under JP200 big lubes last Saturday. He was shooting Olde E and I was shooting Schutzen and everyone was commenting on how much smoke and flame my pistols were putting out. I'm certain his pistols were probably cleaner at the end of the day but that doesn't matter to me.

LonesomePigeon said:

I was thinking, if you're filling fired brass that has not been full length resized you are probably going to be able to fit more powder in the case compared to a piece of new brass, or a piece of brass that has been full length resized. Especially if the gun that fired the brass has large chambers. Could this be why some people can fit 40 grains and some can't?

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Very plausible as to the inconsistent reports. That was a brand new case I posted in the photo.

Cowhide Cliff said:

A friend and I were both shooting 45 Schofield with 28 grains of 2f under JP200 big lubes last Saturday.

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So how do you like that J/P 45-200 bullet?

LonesomePigeon said:

I was thinking, if you're filling fired brass that has not been full length resized you are probably going to be able to fit more powder in the case compared to a piece of new brass, or a piece of brass that has been full length resized. Especially if the gun that fired the brass has large chambers. Could this be why some people can fit 40 grains and some can't?

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I doubt it. The difference in powder capacity is not very significant between brass that has been expanded by firing and resized.

damoc said:

Last comment before WE derail the conversation I have NEVER seen real BP in a store EVER THE END

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Not recently, but I used to buy Goex, three pounds at a time, in a store about 45 minutes away. Unfortunately they allowed their license to lapse, and when they went to renew the BATF wanted them to rebuild their powder magazine further away from the road. So they stopped selling real Black Powder. Kittery Trading Post in Maine, the largest gun room in New England, used to sell Goex too. When my supply 45 minutes away dried up I drove to Kittery, about an hour away, to stock up. Another place only about 30 minutes away used to sell it too. I just checked, they are sill in business, but I have not been there in years. I buy all my powder with a friend these days. We split a 50 pound carton every couple of years.

There is absolutely no problem getting 40 grains of black powder into a modern case. Period. The difference between the capacity of a balloon head case, and a modern case is slight. Compress the powder in a separate step. Do not attempt to compress the powder when seating the bullet, unless you like deformed bullets.

With more compression than "slight" as some suggest, you will get a cleaner burn, less fouling, less smoke, and more accuracy.

Tagged

Driftwood Johnson said:

So how do you like that J/P 45-200 bullet?

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It's awesome I recommend it all the time, I don't have the mold I just by them from Mark.

Ugly Sauce said:

There is absolutely no problem getting 40 grains of black powder into a modern case. Period. The difference between the capacity of a balloon head case, and a modern case is slight. Compress the powder in a separate step. Do not attempt to compress the powder when seating the bullet, unless you like deformed bullets.

With more compression than "slight" as some suggest, you will get a cleaner burn, less fouling, less smoke, and more accuracy.

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Just speculating here. I wonder if the powder had to be compressed in a separate step when the old 40 grain 45 Colt ammunition was being made in the 1800s.

Frankly, as I believe I have stated before, about 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg under a 250 grain bullet is enough for me. Compressing the powder with the bullet by only about 1/16" - 1/8" does not deform the bullet. I am not concerned with a cleaner burn, lots of smoke is fine with me, and the fouling is not a problem either when using Big Lube bullets. Jeepers, the way I push those bullets you'd think I was getting kickbacks, but I am not.

Don't disagree with you at all. Nothing wrong with 30-35 grains. My only point, that you can get 40 grains in easily if you want to. I hear so many give the advice "well with modern cases, you can't get 40 grains in the case". And that you would need the balloon head cases, blah blah blah.

I think that powder was compressed in a separate step, back in the day. Although, it the seating die matched the bullet perfectly, and it covered the nose of the bullet completely, I can see where that might work.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the old machinery that loaded cartridges in the 1880's in motion? Take a tour of the factory, if you had a way-back machine?

Ugly Sauce said:

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the old machinery that loaded cartridges in the 1880's in motion? Take a tour of the factory, if you had a way-back machine?

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Yes, but I'd be happy to settle for the video of that. I seem to recall a few "oopsies" in 19th-century ammo manufacturing.

You've heard of the Luck of the Irish? Well, I ain't Irish... With my luck, that day would be the one my way-back machine would stop at!

Ugly Sauce said:

Don't disagree with you at all. Nothing wrong with 30-35 grains. My only point, that you can get 40 grains in easily if you want to. I hear so many give the advice "well with modern cases, you can't get 40 grains in the case". And that you would need the balloon head cases, blah blah blah.

I think that powder was compressed in a separate step, back in the day. Although, it the seating die matched the bullet perfectly, and it covered the nose of the bullet completely, I can see where that might work.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the old machinery that loaded cartridges in the 1880's in motion? Take a tour of the factory, if you had a way-back machine?

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When the 40 grains spills over the edge of the cartridge as my photo shows it's not what I consider easy since you have to compress and add powder in two steps just to get it in there.

Don't know what cases you are using, or how you are weighing out your powder, or what powder, or if using a measure what weight it actually throws, but 40 grains certainly does not spill over the edge, or even come close. ? I use nickel plated .45 Colt Star-Line brass. Hey...maybe my scales are ten grains off.

Also, if you look at a cut-away of a modern case, and a balloon head case, side by side, that little ring of space around the primer pocket isn't going to hold five or ten grains. ?

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just relating my own, personal experience loading black powder in the 45 Colt's (as they used to call it).

Back in the 1980s I wanted to learn what the original performance was and then find a way to duplicate it. I tried getting 40g of FFg GOEX in solid head cases and like Cliff has said it spilled over the edge of the case. If I was very careful I could keep the full charge in the case but it mounded up in the middle and in trying to compress it, some spilled onto the bench.

Then I got lucky and found a full 50 count box of NOS balloon head cases at a gun show. I was able to get the 40g in them but they were still full enough that it took some compression to seat my 255g RNFPs to the correct overall length. I had read in several sources the original performance was 910 fps from a 7.5" Cav Colt. When I chronographed my hand load I got a 5 shot average of 914 fps. This velocity was from a 1st Generation Colt with a 7.5" barrel.

I kept loading the balloon head cases since I had them but by the 4th or 5th reload I was getting failures of the brass. I then searched for a duplicate in performance but with modern brass. In trying to figure all this out I found that on average WW 45 Colt brass (what I had the most of) held 4g less black powder than those old balloon head cases (filled level to the top). Based on that I tried 36g of FFg GOEX behind my 255g bullet. I don't have the reloading journal handy to double check but the velocity from my 7.5" gun was in the upper 890s. As a further experiment I tried 36g of FFFg GOEX and got and average for 5 shots of 907 fps. That was my duplicate of the original performance for years after that.

Fast forward 30+ years and although I got out of the whole Old West gun hobby in the mid 1990s, in my dotage I've gotten back to my first love...black powder cartridge guns. I again have a 7.5" single action 45 Colt, this time a late production USFA "Gunslinger" (I hate that name). I have discovered Olde Eynsford and prefer it's cleaner burning properties and that it gives a little more velocity for a given charge over the parent GOEX. So I'm now loading 36g of FFg OE under the Big Lube 250g as cast by Mark Whyte. That's giving me a bit over 900 fps which is close enough as it will up-set my steel targets if I hit them too high. LOL

YMMV,
Dave

No, not looking to argue, but I just dug out a Starline brass, weighed out 40 grains or 3fg on my scale, poured it in the case and I've got almost 1/16" or at least 1/32" free space. ??

I have two RCBS scales set up, and they are both agreeing with the weight. 2fg would certainly have more bulk than 3fg. Is that why our results vary? Is it possible the factory loads used a powder finer than 3fg, 4fg perhaps?

Anyhow, maybe Starline brass is longer, or more "capacious"? I think that's the only brass I've ever used in .45 Colt's. But I loaded up quite a few with 40 grains of 3fg. I really did. Shooting a 256 grain bullet over my chronograph, from my EL Patron with 5.5" barrel, I got; 898, 929,879, 890, and 896FPS. (9 grains of Unique gives me an almost identical string/velocity reading with a 250 grain bullet)

I hope no one thinks I'm saying that 40 grains is "better" than 35 or 36 grains. I don't. Certainly only a chronograph could tell any difference. Just saying you can get 40 grains under a 250 grain bullet if you really want to.

Dave T said:

I'm not trying to argue with anyone,

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Ugly Sauce said:

No, not looking to argue,

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Uh guys, you are arguing.

Anyway, if you go back to my photo, that is 41 grains of Schuetzen inside a Starline 45 Case. Yes, I weighed it. After a little bit of tapping on the table top the powder settled down to about 1/8" below the case mouth. Yes, if I tried to seat a bullet on top of this charge it would need a lot of compression and would probably deform the bottom of the bullet. If I was going to use this charge I would have to use a compression die to compress the powder enough so the bullet could be seated and crimped without deforming the rear of the bullet. If I was gonna, which I ain't.

Ugly Sauce said:

Don't know what cases you are using, or how you are weighing out your powder, or what powder, or if using a measure what weight it actually throws, but 40 grains certainly does not spill over the edge, or even come close. ? I use nickel plated .45 Colt Star-Line brass. Hey...maybe my scales are ten grains off.

Also, if you look at a cut-away of a modern case, and a balloon head case, side by side, that little ring of space around the primer pocket isn't going to hold five or ten grains. ?

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Not weighing, 40 grains by volume. 40 grains of 3f may not spill over. Black powder is usually measured by volume not weight.