How does ATF trace old guns

Captcurt: Exactly.
And about 14 of my 20 or so deals (guns) had No Photo with the ads- because I never learned the upload procedures. Other people accepted photos from my iPhone. I’m 65 years old——

—We knew years ago that Armslist was Created for FTF deals.
All twenty of my deals went quite well.

It was amazing that some apparently young people completely missed the Big Picture .

Some must also be naive about distinguishing between normal verbiage and the different, impatient styles used by scammers. “Will You Ship?? I dont need any more photos..!!”.
The guy had Zero questions or any request for an extra photo of my WW2 Mauser Hsc.
The style resembled a rushed, breathless, used car Semi-literate salesman ad enhanced by Amphetamine.

If the SN has ever been entered into the stolen gun database that information could be used to connect dots back to a recent owner even with an older gun. Same if a gun is ever returned to the manufacturer for repair. There may be gaps in the paper trail making it all but impossible to track down some guns. But there are ways to fill in some of those gaps with others.

I think a better question is how often do you have a dead body, a gun and absolutely nothing else to go on?

castile said:

So if grandpa dies, and grandma sells Grandpa's old Colt to a shop and its stolen and used in a crime they have no place to even know where to start? So the system is not an easy one for the ATF to use unless there is an unbroken chain they can follow. I was reading they want to make it so they can start a data base on all guns if they also get a UBGC.

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Why are you so concerned? Who cares? If I sold a gun decades ago (and I have) and they want to know where it is, I tell him I have no idea, it was sold a long time ago to guy for cash in another state when I lived there.

Deleted. Decided just to keep this to myself.

Real life isn't CSI. Not every gun gets traced, not every victim gets identified, not every crime gets solved, and none of it happens in 30 minutes.

Maybe a little off topic, but state with UBC - how does a deal transfer a pre-1968 gun? There is no serial number. I have a shotgun that was passed down from my grandpa with no serial number. I would never sell it, but would a dealer just put N/A in the section for serial number?

blackd24 said:

Maybe a little off topic, but state with UBC - how does a deal transfer a pre-1968 gun?

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The same way dealers in non UBC states do.
The only firearm information in an FBI NICS check is the type: handgun, long gun or other. No manufacturers name, no model name, no serial#, etc.
The dealer logs it in his bound book as "NSN" or "no serial number".

There is no serial number. I have a shotgun that was passed down from my grandpa with no serial number. I would never sell it, but would a dealer just put N/A in the section for serial number?

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N/A. none, NSN, etc.

"just like my C&R forms don't go in unless I don't renew my lisc."

Wrong. Your C&R book does NOT go to the ATFE at any time, whether you renew or not. When it expires or you resign it, you can burn it, if you so choose.

jonnyc said:

"just like my C&R forms don't go in unless I don't renew my lisc."

Wrong. Your C&R book does NOT go to the ATFE at any time, whether you renew or not. When it expires or you resign it, you can burn it, if you so choose.

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Yep, that's what I did when I didn't renew my C&R. Even though I didn't believe that there were any deficiencies, why leave a paper trail when you don't need to?

DCM / CMP records ?
Does anyone know how they are handled?

Re: PA, your friend must have had pistols stolen as the PA State Police maintain a record of handgun sales. When you buy a handgun in PA you fill out the Federal 4473 and a state form. The state form goes to the PA State Police. This does not apply to long guns. In PA long guns can be sold by individuals to other individuals without going through a background check. Of course if you buy a long gun at a FFL you have to do a 4473, but no state form.

As far as PA being a SH compared to most surrounding states it's a gun owners paradise. For example with the exception of Philadelphia you can open carry w/o a permit. It's also a shall issue state.

Information can also be gathered in the other direction, when there is a suspect or "person of interest". While there is no "real" data base of guns and owners at the federal level, there is a record of approvals. NICS or agencies like FDLE in Fl. have a record that John Doe (the suspect) was approved to purchase a firearm, by x dealer on x date. Very easy for an agency to visit that dealer and demand access to records. In fact, they can audit all the records of that FFL if they so desire.

P5 Guy said:

DCM / CMP records ?
Does anyone know how they are handled?

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Exactly like any other 01FFL because thats what the CMP is.

FL-NC said:

Information can also be gathered in the other direction, when there is a suspect or "person of interest". While there is no "real" data base of guns and owners at the federal level, there is a record of approvals.

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No, there isn't.

NICS or agencies like FDLE in Fl. have a record that John Doe (the suspect) was approved to purchase a firearm, by x dealer on x date.

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Federal law prohibits the FBI NICS from keeping records of "proceeds" after the end of the NICS business day. (They got caught by Congress early in the program doing that)
Federal law DOES allow FBI NICS to keep "delayed" transactions open until the status changes to a "proceed"....then deleted from the system that night. Denied transactions are kept permanantly.

States like Florida that are a POC can ask for more information on the firearm and buyer than FBI NICS and can keep whatever they want for as long as they want.

Very easy for an agency to visit that dealer and demand access to records.

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Very easy requires a search warrant. A police officer has no right to view a dealers records unless he has a search warrant.

In fact, they can audit all the records of that FFL if they so desire.

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100% false. ATF is limited to one compliance inspection of the dealers records per year. Local or state LE has no such regulatory authority.
If a local PD were to show up and demand to "audit" my records he'll need a search warrant.

Funny this subject came up, I saw a T.V. show about how the BATF hunts for gun info. First thing I found odd is they are forbidden to use computers. Everything they do is on paper or microfilm. Like someone said they are constantly running out of room for all the paper. They actually store some in conex containers and hunt for stuff with flashlights. I find this really odd, maybe that is how the IRS should do things??

Encoreman:
Despite what was on that TV show you watched, is the BATF actually forbidden to use computers?

If so, that's delightful news for a bunch of guys all over gun board websites.
They hinted years ago, or implied that the BATF has a powerful computer - or other methods - already tracking, or 'soon' (back in 2008) to be tracking How Much Ammo they have bought with credit cards.

RON in PA said:

Re: PA, your friend must have had pistols stolen as the PA State Police maintain a record of handgun sales. When you buy a handgun in PA you fill out the Federal 4473 and a state form. The state form goes to the PA State Police. This does not apply to long guns. In PA long guns can be sold by individuals to other individuals without going through a background check. Of course if you buy a long gun at a FFL you have to do a 4473, but no state form.

As far as PA being a SH compared to most surrounding states it's a gun owners paradise. For example with the exception of Philadelphia you can open carry w/o a permit. It's also a shall issue state.

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If you are responding to my earlier post, my friend only had rifles stolen. The State Police Investigator who showed up had a list of every gun he had transferred through an FFL, including a 10/22 he had bought in 1989. The Investigator showed up within hours of the theft being reported.
Some of his rifles were recovered, but not all. The perpetrator was arrested, took a plea deal AFAIK.

Encoreman said:

Funny this subject came up, I saw a T.V. show about how the BATF hunts for gun info. First thing I found odd is they are forbidden to use computers. Everything they do is on paper or microfilm. Like someone said they are constantly running out of room for all the paper. They actually store some in conex containers and hunt for stuff with flashlights. I find this really odd, maybe that is how the IRS should do things??

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It could be that when whatever law was written it only listed paper records be kept by the BATF. The allows no use of microfilm it scanned documents

RON in PA said:

Re: PA, your friend must have had pistols stolen as the PA State Police maintain a record of handgun sales. When you buy a handgun in PA you fill out the Federal 4473 and a state form. The state form goes to the PA State Police. This does not apply to long guns. In PA long guns can be sold by individuals to other individuals without going through a background check. Of course if you buy a long gun at a FFL you have to do a 4473, but no state form.

As far as PA being a SH compared to most surrounding states it's a gun owners paradise. For example with the exception of Philadelphia you can open carry w/o a permit. It's also a shall issue state.

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I'll add this too..while I think its unconstitutional for any records to he kept...Fed or State...in PA, those records stay with the PSP and PSP ONLY! They are only accessed by PSP or other legitimate law enforcement and ONLY for investigation of actual crimes. The PSP does not publish anything from their list...to anyone for any reason outside criminal investigations.

The PSP is one of the best in the nation..purely professional, and they avoid political motives. In fact, they get very sore when the head of the PSP isnt promoted from within...as our Dictator wannabe Governor Wolf found out when he tried to appoint an out of stater to head the PSP.

So..much as I hate that my handguns..and ONLY handguns are registered in PA...I do rest somewhat easier knowing they are in the hands of a very honorable and professional police force.

BlueHeelerFl said:

It could be that when whatever law was written it only listed paper records be kept by the BATF. The allows no use of microfilm it scanned documents

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Goes beyond that too. The law applies a 10 year prison sentance to any bureaucrat that's found producing any electronic database off 4473s. The law VERY expressly forbids any conversion to electronic records.

Ignition Override said:

Encoreman:
Despite what was on that TV show you watched, is the BATF actually forbidden to use computers?

If so, that's delightful news for a bunch of guys all over gun board websites.
They hinted years ago, or implied that the BATF has a powerful computer - or other methods - already tracking, or 'soon' (back in 2008) to be tracking How Much Ammo they have bought with credit cards.

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Anyone that believes ATF has these awesome computers that can track anything more than a UPS shipment.....don't know how ancient ATF technology really is.
ATF still hasn't figured out how to competently run their eForms website......it has a planned outage for "maintenance" every Wednesday (not Saturdays or Sundays that would be too convenient). It doesn't work with Chrome or Firefox, but actually works pretty well with Internet Explorer

One of the reasons that I always have gotten a time stamped Bill Of Sale from any firearm that I have personally sold is to insure that if the ATF shows up asking about a particular firearm they traced as far as me, I can show who I sold it too, on what date and at one time.

As a dealer I was required to keep all my 4473 forms for at least 20 years or turn them in. At this time I have every 4473 and all my bound books since 1970.

In addition to tracing a firearm from the Manufacturer to the Distributor (assuming not direct dealer sale) to the Dealer and then to the person who purchased it, I have also had ATF contact me many time over the years asking if I sold a specific make and model of firearm or in some case even ammo, too. This when they had determined what type of firearm may have been used in a crime, but not the specific one i.e. serial number. The most famous one that I was involved in was in the 80s when I was contacted and asked if I had sold any Charter Arm Bull Dog pistols and any .44 Special ammo.

One of the people I had sold one too along with 10 boxes of ammo was a doctor who wanted the pistol to keep on his sail boat as he sailed in hostile waters at times. When approached by the ATF, turned out that the doctor had died, but the widow of the doctor, fortunately was able to produce the pistol. His name was Dr. David Berkowitz and was no relative of the David Berkowitz that was names the "Son of Sam".

Certainly purchased used guns that were well over 50 years old, but as a dealer, even when purchasing them for my self, they went into my bound book and then out on a 4473 to me.

Bob

Great thread. very educational.

dogtown tom:
And in addition to that, the strangest anxiety seems to be about 922r. Guys actually worry that the ATF could ..magically, using X-Files technology....discover that their "parts count" isn't as it was when a gun was imported.

But the US parts (i.e. in AKMs) are Not required to state anything such as "Made In USA". >>>>It's not in the regs., which have some other ill-defined sections<<<

No private owner has ever been taken to court over any of this (and almost none of the importers who 'miscounted' were charged), unless they happen to be into felony drug distribution, bank robbery etc.

The domestic gun parts manufacturers, (and thousands of private sellers) are the only entities with the incentive to make a mountain out of a mole hill. $$$$.