Article: According to the Founders, all federal gun restrictions are unconstitutional

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aim1

member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,310
Great article and not wrong.


From the article: "A plain reading of the Second Amendment ought to be enough to stop nearly all federal gun laws. But over the past century, courts and scholars have watered down the Bill of Rights with convoluted arguments that contradict the overwhelming historical evidence available today.

The truth is, the intentions of those who debated, wrote and passed the Second Amendment are clear: The purpose of the amendment is to protect individual liberty by, in part, stopping the federal government from instituting gun restrictions of any kind, because America's founders wanted to ensure citizens had the ability to defend themselves against a tyrannical national government and other domestic threats, as well as from foreign invaders."



https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-r...the-founders-all-federal-gun-restrictions-are




Screenshot_20210401-223013_Chrome.jpg
 
These are the same founding fathers that required gun ownership, thereby destroying the right to keep and bear arms by making it mandatory with the Militia Acts? A right ceases to be a right when it becomes a legal duty or obligation.
 
From the article: "A plain reading of the Second Amendment ought to be enough to stop nearly all federal gun laws.
All of them except those dealing with judicially disenfranchised persons (i.e. felons who may not vote either). No news here.

A right ceases to be a right when it becomes a legal duty or obligation.
eh? I'm going to need you to spell that out, it sounds nonsensical. The Constitutional prohibition on State infringement of this particular natural right is in no way weakened by requiring citizens to contribute to the security of the State by being armed, trained, etc. That requirement might be questionable vis a vis other rights, but not this one.
 
Last edited:
When lawyers start writing laws limiting rights based of the premise of “what could be”, and those laws are upheld in federal court, that right then is ceases to be a right of free peoples.
 
When looking at any piece of writing, the historical (what did it mean to the person who wrote it and who they wrote it to), literal (If there is no reason to apply a figurative meaning, then a literal interpretation is applied), grammatical (what do the words mean in their original language and context) interpretation is what is accepted. Deviating from this without cause found in the text will get you laughed out of any literature program. But that is exactly what we get every time some lawyer tortures a new meaning from it by injecting things not found in the text. As Scalia said, "It says what it says and doesn't say what it doesn't". It is, by design, a document limited in scope to constrain the power of a federal government. We have much of the original writings from the men who wrote the document to inform us regarding what they meant when they wrote it. But that gets ignored because someone wants to exercise their legal gymnastics and "find" their pet meaning. On myriad issues, this is why we're in a mess right now and lawyers are generally despised. But that's only because they generally deserve it.
 
Deviating from this without cause found in the text will get you laughed out of any literature program.
I agree with your Originalist belief, but I observe that you must not have not been in a liberal arts academic environment for decades.

Originalism has been replaced for decades by various other schemes that allow the reader to find the meaning in "themselves". Textualism, Deconstructionism, Critical (insert your favorite cause celeb) Theory, rule academia.

Today, proposing that a text means what the author meant, will get you run out of any literature program, on a rail, labeled as a bigot, and cancelled. If they permitted that idea, the entire ecosystem of academic grievance mongering and Critical Studies would vanish into ash, and the Academy would halve in size and budget.

. . . along with two-thirds of the Federal government.
 
While I tend to react very favorably to the idea expressed in the OP post and article, I tend to think a gun law could be Constitional so long as it does not violate the real premise of the Second Amendment. Surely there are laws that do NOT infringe on the right to keep and bear.

Of course, those who propose that lawmakers today have little or no fealty to the Constitional are, sadly, very correct.
 
All of them except those dealing with judicially disenfranchised persons (i.e. felons who may not vote either). No news here.

eh? I'm going to need you to spell that out, it sounds nonsensical. The Constitutional prohibition on State infringement of this particular natural right is in no way weakened by requiring citizens to contribute to the security of the State by being armed, trained, etc. That requirement might be questionable vis a vis other rights, but not this one.

Again, it is no longer a right when it becomes a legal requirement, regardless of the justification used.

But since it is a right to keep and bear arms means you have the right to not be armed and therefore any law requiring you to be armed would be equally unconstitutional.
 
Double Nought, here's the hole in your idea. The constitution is a constraint on federal government and those colonial era laws requiring ownership (and there were exemptions) imposed by the individual colony or locality. None were imposed by a broader government.
 
Hey, we have a lot of guys in D.C., who are trying to prove to all the proper voting blocks, that they are earning their check. It ain't easy...
 
All underlining was done by me for emphasis and was not part of the original writing.

I think the opinion author has overlooked one important fact related to the entire Constitution not just to the Second Amendment. The Framers included the Third Amendment which established the Judicial Branch of the Government of the United States. That article in part states:

Section 2
The Judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;—to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;—to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;—to Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;—between Citizens of different States,—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects
.

Those words establish the duty of the Supreme Court to interpret the language of the Constitution and to make rulings on the meaning of such language. The historical record of such action by SCOTUS more than adequately demonstrates that Article 2, Section 2 has been and is accepted by the People of the United States. The opinion author ignores the SCOTUS’ power to rule on Constitutional controversies, and in doing so bases his argument only on the literal wording of 2A. He ignores the fact that other parts of the Constitution have to be considered when making judgements about any one part. The simple fact is that SCOTUS has the duty to determine what the language of the Constitution means and to make rulings of law based upon its interpretation of words and wording.

The Constitution states:
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed
.”

The Supreme Court’s decision in DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER (June 2008) qualified the intent and the interpretation of 2A. The opinion’s author seems to have totally ignored that fact. The Heller Decision contains an exhaustive discussion on 2A. For those who might want to read the decision it can be found here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html

The following excerpts are quoted verbatim from the Heller Decision.

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment ’s right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v. Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose.

The Heller decision cites this SCOTUs precedent in United States v. Miller, (1939):
Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.

By ignoring relative and binding precedent the opinion author proves he had not adequately researched the basis of his argument. Faulty research leads to faulty conclusions.

Heller further affirmed regulating 2A by the following:

Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

Article 3 of the Constitution clearly gives SCOTUS the power to uphold or deny regulation of the RTKBA. Like it or not, it is what is. We should get used to the reality
 
All of them except those dealing with judicially disenfranchised persons (i.e. felons who may not vote either). No news here.
Which has only existed since 1968, three years' more than half a century.
The Nation tottered along without such stricture for a mere 173 years.

However, the article does make a good case for barring federal legislation--but there's a legitimate argument the Constitution limits nearly all Federal legislation, too. (John Adams would probably be appalled at the abuse of the Commerce clause--and apoplectic that US Code spans the number of Titles and Chapters that it does.)

That being said, there are, in fact, quite reasonable restrictions on every Amendment (barring only the orphan 3rd)
 
On the other hand, in the United States Constitution itself the Founding Fathers gave the federal courts the authority to decide what the Constitution means and how it applies (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....

Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,...

Judicial power is:
  1. ...the power “of a court to decide and pronounce a judgment and carry it into effect between persons and parties who bring a case before it for decision.

  2. and
    ...the right to determine actual controversies arising between diverse litigants, duly instituted in courts....
The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute.

Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed. In fact, of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers; and of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers.

What our Constitution says and how it applies has been a matter for dispute almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hylton v. United States in 1796 appears to be the first major litigation involving a question of the interpretation and application of the Constitution. Then came Marbury v. Madison decided in 1803; and McCulloch v. Maryland was decided 10 years later, in 1813.

So, as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution, if there is disagreement about how the Constitution applies to the circumstances of a particular case, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):
....It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.....
.

See also Madison in Federalist No. 39:
....the proposed government cannot be deemed a NATIONAL one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignty over all other objects. It is true that in controversies relating to the boundary between the two jurisdictions, the tribunal which is ultimately to decide, is to be established under the general government. But this does not change the principle of the case. The decision is to be impartially made, according to the rules of the Constitution; and all the usual and most effectual precautions are taken to secure this impartiality. Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated....

And Hamilton in Federalist No. 78:
.......If it be said that the legislative body are themselves the constitutional judges of their own powers, and that the construction they put upon them is conclusive upon the other departments, it may be answered, that this cannot be the natural presumption, where it is not to be collected from any particular provisions in the Constitution. It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their WILL to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, ....
.

The U. S. Supreme Court has been deciding cases arising under the Constitution for over two hundred years. Its decisions in those cases affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. And those decision of the U. S.Supreme Court are also used by the lower courts in deciding cases brought before them.

The U. S. Supreme Court has consistently ruled that rights protected by the Constitution are not absolute and that under the correct circumstances may be regulated.

As the Supreme Court said in Murdock v. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105, 63 S.Ct. 870, 87 L.Ed. 1292, 146 A.L.R. 81 (1943), at 110:
… See for example Cox v. New Hampshire 312 U.S. 569, 61 S.Ct. 762, 85 L.Ed. 1049, 133 A.L.R. 1396, and Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031. But that merely illustrates that the rights with which we are dealing are not absolutes. …

As further illustration of this fundamental principle —

  1. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031(1942), at 571-572:
    …Allowing the broadest scope to the language and purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, it is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which has never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem …


  2. In Cox v. State of New Hampshire, 312 U.S. 569, 61 S.Ct. 762, 85 L.Ed. 1049, 133 A.L.R. 1396 (U. S. Supreme Court, 1941) the Supreme Court upheld as constitutional a municipal ordinance which burdened the exercise of a right protected under the First Amendment by requiring a permit, for which a fee was charged, to hold a parade of procession on the streets was valid and enforceable.

  3. In Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), the Court upheld a Colorado law which restricted rights protected under the First Amendment by restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility.

  4. In Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618, 89 S.Ct. 1322, 22 L.Ed.2d 600 (1969), at 629 (emphasis added):
    ...our constitutional concepts of personal liberty unite to require that all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited by statutes, rules, or regulations which unreasonably burden or restrict this movement….

In all such cases the Court analyzes the nature and significance of the right, the nature and extent of the the burden, and the importance of the governmental interests furthered by the imposition of the burden as part of the process of deciding whether a particular law regulating a right protected by the Constitution is, or is not, constitutionally permissible.

Reality is what happens in real life in the real world. There are over 1.3 million lawyers in the U. S. There are something on the order of 30,000 judges in various state courts and about 1,700 federal court judges. Something well over a million cases are filed each year in the state and federal trial courts. Decisions affecting the lives and property of real people are being made every day in that system.
 
We really have no protections. The reality is we will roll over.

On the other hand, we must be doing something right. From The Wall Street Journal, "The Culture That Sustains America’s Constitution", 2 July 2018:
Since 1789 the average life span of national constitutions world-wide has been 19 years, according to scholars at the University of Chicago. Meanwhile, “We the People of the United States” are now well into the third century under our Constitution. We’ve lived under the same written charter longer than any people on earth. We’ve had regular federal elections every two years, uninterrupted even by the Civil War....
 
And along come the lawyers insisting they're important.

Quote:
Reality is what happens in real life in the real world. There are over 1.3 million lawyers in the U. S. There are something on the order of 30,000 judges in various state courts and about 1,700 federal court judges. Something well over a million cases are filed each year in the state and federal trial courts. Decisions affecting the lives and property of real people are being made every day in that system.

My house is 150 years old, I'm sure there are some pests around here somewhere, too.

There was a discussion happening regarding the constitutionality of gun laws and you've offered nothing but a defense of your career choice. This is why people look down on lawyers. Now please cont5ibute to the actual topic or be quiet.
 
...There was a discussion happening regarding the constitutionality of gun laws and you've offered nothing but a defense of your career choice......

Your discussion of the constitutionality of gun laws has been entirely pointless. In real life in the real world constitutionality is decided by the courts, as the Founders provided in the Constitution.

By all means enjoy your fantasies, but they don't change anything in real life in the real world.
 
And along come the lawyers insisting they're important.

Quote:
Reality is what happens in real life in the real world. There are over 1.3 million lawyers in the U. S. There are something on the order of 30,000 judges in various state courts and about 1,700 federal court judges. Something well over a million cases are filed each year in the state and federal trial courts. Decisions affecting the lives and property of real people are being made every day in that system.

My house is 150 years old, I'm sure there are some pests around here somewhere, too.

There was a discussion happening regarding the constitutionality of gun laws and you've offered nothing but a defense of your career choice. This is why people look down on lawyers. Now please cont5ibute to the actual topic or be quiet.

I did not interpret the quoted post as a defense of a career choice. Actually the quoted post in its entirety was well constructed and written. It was informative. Only some people look down on lawyers in general. Some lawyers earn a bad rep. Others do what they are sworn to do ethically and responsibly. For quite a few years as an expert witness in Article 2 Section 8 cases I had to interact with lawyers all the time in court cases. I found them to be good folks even when they were doing their best to negate my testimony. Finally, if you think lawyers are a problem when it comes to rights, imagine defending you rights if there were no lawyers. Not good.
 
Back on topic. The OP posted an article positing all federal gun laws were in violation of the 2A. As long as Western Civilization has been around, the goal of interpreting written documents has been what I mentioned before, historical, literal and grammatical. Deviation must be supported and justified by either the text itself or supporting context. We've drifted so far from the plain text because dragging in extraneous bits into interpretation has become de rigueur. The founders and framers most certainly did disagree, sometimes vehemently. However, once the document was written, it became subject to the same rules of interpretation as any other document. Discarding this principle will eventually leave any and all documents meaningless. Whether I like it or not, you like it or not, all irrelevant. If we don't like it there is a process for amendment. Dragging in post-facto laws and ruling by which to view the original document (Constitution) is completely backward. Yet this is what happens every time the topic is discussed.
 
Interesting review of the Heller decision, from a professor at George Mason University of Law -

The Second Amendment and Original Meaning Jurisprudence (gmu.edu)


It is a very interesting opinion, but I think it to be flawed. Scalia made an in. Important distinction in his assertion thar the RTKBA pre-existed the Federal Constitution. He cited the Constitutions of states That had constitutions before the US Constitution was enacted. The RTKBA was in the PA and other states constitutions before the federal constitution was written. In fact the Bill of Rights was constructed but feedback from the various states. The RTKBA enshrined in law before the Constitution was written. The other factor overlooked is that natural law compels all creatures to defend themselves. It does not limit how to do it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top