Compact/Full Sized .380s w/locked breech

I think the 90gr Xtreme Penetrator in .380 ACP would "pass" the FBI tests. They penetrate 17" to 19" in ordnance gel after 3/4" of pine board, 4 layers of denim, 1/2" drywall and 22 gauge sheet metal (not all together - each of these is a separate test). The results for each test - wood, steel, drywall and 4 x denim are all similar, the bullets travel 17" to 19" after the barrier. I haven't seen a test against auto glass but I think the results would be similar. Of course the bullet would get zero points on the expansion scoring but neither would the round lose points for retained weight or shots <12"

Mosin77

Taurus use to make the PT138 Millennium which was a polymer frame, locked breach design, compact pistol. I believe it had 10 and 12 round magazines for it.

zaitcev said:

It's an interesting question if the upper of P250 can run over a chassis of P320. Even if the grip differs, it can be 3D-printed, thus yielding a P320 380.

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A mix-and-match P320 .380 cannot be built. The P320 FCU (fire control unit or chassis) does not have a hammer, which is required to hit a P250's firing pin. A P250 .380 barrel is smaller in diameter than a 9mm barrel, so a simple barrel swap to a P320 slide will not work.

Kleanbore said:

The Critical Defense load in 9MM does not meet the FBI specs.

That does not dissuade me from carrying it.

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Ah, I forgot about all the barrier tests. When the FBI test is mentioned, I usually just think of the denim and gel test.

Zendude said:

Ah, I forgot about all the barrier tests. When the FBI test is mentioned, I usually just think of the denim and gel test.

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The 4 layers of denim was designed to be an engineering evaluation tool to assess the ability of JHP handgun bullets to resist plugging and expand robustly. It came about because bullets that were passing the FBI tests still had a certain rate of failure in the field with the California Highway Patrol. Duncan MacPherson and the California Highway Patrol felt that something was wrong and MacPherson summed it up:

"the heavy clothing stages in various tests seem to have been selected to represent specific clothing without any systematic investigation directed at evaluating what aspects of the cloth were critical. Most expansion failures of JHP handgun bullets reported in actual shootings where hard barriers are not involved are probably due to factors that effectively plug up the hollow point cavity and reduce pressure in this area, although the dynamics model that occasionally leads to this result is not completely known in detail."

The multiple layers of denim created the exact situation that caused the failure of hollow points to expand. The thick layer of denim consistently re-created the situation where the hollow point became plugged by cloth, thus reducing pressure in the hollow point cavity and preventing expansion.

By using the IWBA four-layer heavy denim protocol, bullet manufacturers were able to design bullets that resisted plugging and expanded reliably.

I carried a Colt's Government .380 for a few years... never felt undergunned. I am able to shoot it well... it has a natural point of aim for me, anyway, which was good.... because it had crappy sights.

With it's 1911 stablemate...



...and with it's replacement, the Kahr CW9...



I don't have any actual .380 velocity data, for some reason. If you were stuck with a .380, I would think the longer the barrel, the better, however. In the end, I replaced the Colt with the Kahr... same basic size, less weight, same round count, more bullet weight.

I agree, however... compared to a blowback pistol, the locked-breech is superior. I've shot the Colt's Government .380 side-by-side with the legendary PPK/s... and the Colt wins, hands down. The Walther cracks your hand, the Colt does not... and there is that pesky DA/SA, decocker thing going on, too.

Charlie98

I agree, however... compared to a blowback pistol, the locked-breech is superior. I've shot the Colt's Government .380 side-by-side with the legendary PPK/s... and the Colt wins, hands down. The Walther cracks your hand, the Colt does not... and there is that pesky DA/SA, decocker thing going on, too.

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I totally agree! Had a couple of Walther PPs an a PPK/s and my Colt Mustang was way ahead with it's single action trigger and locked breech design. The only thing that the Mustang could use is better sights and I fixed that by adding a SIG P238 to the stable.

bannockburn said:

The only thing that the Mustang could use is better sights and I fixed that by adding a SIG P238 to the stable.

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When I was carrying the Colt, I debated sending it off to Cylinder & Slide to have 'real' sights put on it... but the price was a little steep, and I never did so.

There is also the 380 version of the Sig P290RS, a DAO hammer fired compact with a 6 + 1 and an 8 + 1 magazine.

The 380 has the Blue scales installed.



And with black scales and the 8 round extended magazine.

I have given up on blow back pistols larger than a 22 LR. Age and wear and tear has resulted in an enlarged and tender tendon that runs across the web of my hand and it lets me know quickly that it doesn't appreciate the snappy recoil from centerfire blow back operated guns. My wife's hands are in much worse shape from arthritis so her PPK/s doesn't get shot any more and my Baby Rock got sold.

To be honest, outside of a much larger gun, the Glock 42 is the best shooting 380 out there. It's small enough to pocket carry, yeah the capacity isn't the best at 6+1 but I've also ran Hyve +1 and +2 extensions with flawless results. It's not as small as a LCP, or instance, but it's about 1000x more shooter friendly, it's a small gun that shoots like a bigger gun. I carry mine often, it has Ameriglo night sights an a TLR-6 light as well.

Ammo wise I cylce between the 90gr Sig V-Crown, the Underwood 90gr +P (1200 fps) and sometimes the 99gr Federal HST and 90gr Speer Dot. There are a few loads that seem to both penetrate pretty well and expand decently, as you can see below.

https://www.luckygunner.com/380-auto-90-grain-jhp-v-crown-sig-sauer-20-rounds#geltest

More results:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

Also, apparently SIG is going to offer their P365 in 380 as well.

Charlie98 said:

I don't have any actual .380 velocity data, for some reason. If you were stuck with a .380, I would think the longer the barrel, the better, however. In the end, I replaced the Colt with the Kahr... same basic size, less weight, same round count, more bullet weight.

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I agree with your presumption. I have chronographed a wide variety of standard pressure factory ammo from a Glock 42 and a S&W Shield .380 EZ, and the 0.4+" longer barrel on the EZ generally produces 40-60 more fps muzzle velocity than the Glock across all the ammo I tested. The 90 grain Speer Gold dots posted a 104 fps difference, Winchester 95 grain PDX1 was 91 fps, Federal 99 grain HST (I think this one has been redesigned or renamed "Micro" since the test) posted a 111 fps difference.

I would not call it compact (smaller than what I call compact) but I like my little Kahr P380


I think the best use for .380 is in something really small like the Sig P238, Kahr P380 etc

If you can find one... I think the Beretta Model 84 Cheetah (although large by today's standards) is a comfortable pistol to grip and shoot. Beside that, in .380 acp, it has a thirteen round magazine capacity (in the Free States) or a ten round in those with stricter gun laws.

Three others I don't think have been mentioned yet are the S&W M&P Bodyguard 380, Beretta Pico and the Remington RM380.

All shown on the Sig P290RS as a size reference.

The one I settled on was a colt pocketlite pony the DAO version of the mustang. At 12 ounces with 6+1 it's locked breached, larger than an LCP or P3AT but smaller than a PPK. Recoil is just about non existent and it feeds any ammo I can fit in the magazine.

I get 1078fps ave (extreme spread of 29fps for 10 shots) with Rem 88gr and the recommended load of Power Pistol in my 1911-380.
953fps ave for the same load in my Colt Mustang.
Both guns are more pleasant shooting than my Bersa Thunder and conceal IWB under a tee shirt adequately.