Sale of Reloaded Ammo

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EricBu said:
Let's be clear...that guy wasn't a "reloader" he was flat out manufacturing. He had a HUGE setup, was selling at gun shows, selling to local shops, and selling online. He was way off the reservation........beyond any stretch of the rules, and had no viable defense at all.....hell, his website was still up and running when he was arrested. LOL, the genius even had branded, custom printed boxes...which is how they caught him.....the vegas shooter still had ammo in the original boxes with the guys name and addy on them.
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Either way, a branded box, or a fingerprint, the law will be looking for someone.
 
No, don't.

Share by inviting them to shoot with you, invite them to pay for your components and load their own under your supervision. In these times, if they're unwilling to take advantage of your preparedness on YOUR terms, they don't need it that badly.
 
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Bayou52 said:
Another work-around if you, as a known reloader, are asked for reloaded ammo from a friend/acquaintance: tell them that for liability purposes, you can't give them the ammo, but that they are invited to come over and make their own ammunition themselves. No one ever does, in my experience, at least...

Bayou52
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This is exactly what I do. But I do get some acceptances.
 
11. Manufacturing - Generally, persons holding a manufacturer’s license (FFL Type 06, 07 or 10) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless exempted by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control (DDTC), regardless of whether the manufacturer actually exports any of the items manufactured. Therefore, applicants intending to manufacture and/or export defense articles, as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR), may need to register with Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Questions should be directed to the DDTC at 202-663-2980 or www.pmddtc.state.gov.


06 Manufacturer of Ammunition for Firearms Other Than Ammunition for Destructive Devices or Armor Piercing Ammunition (seeinstruction #11) $30


These items are on the Application for Federal Firearm License...


Type 01, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, and 11 licenses issued under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44: a. Are NOT licenses to carry, use, or possess a firearm. b. Confer NO right or privilege to conduct business or activity contrary to State or other law. State laws or local laws or ordinances may have requirements affecting your proposed firearms business. Contact your State and local authorities for specific information on their requirements. c. Are business licenses, and will NOT be issued to an applicant solely intending to enhance a personal firearms collection. d. Are NOT licenses to sell ammunition only.

I don't really understand this part, tho....
 
EricBu said:
He also had a web page, and was selling loaded AP ammo (not just SS109s, but AP). By the way, a type 06 FFL is 30.00 and has been for as long as I can remember. Ammo manufacturing specific liability and structure insurance starts around 2500 now.
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Circa 1992, the price was raised to $500/yr for new or renewal per executive order (sound familiar?...)
The National Retail Firearms Dealers Association (iirc) filed a suit against the ATF and administration claiming harm. They prevailed in court and the fee was reset to $30/yr. In the meantime, (18mos) I had no choice but to send in my records and cease operations. So, you were right, but not around for THAT goat rope...
With a wife and two kids, and another career (Law Enforcement no less!) I couldn’t afford to go jousting with the ATF...
 
EricBu said:
So, as a person who's in the process of wading through local permitting, and a type 06 FFL, and has done massive amounts of research, and spent more than a couple of bucks on legal advice:

1. The ITARS requirement is gone for small arms ammunition.
2. There is no federal requirement for insurance.
3. Each state and locality has a different definition of what constitutes a home business, commercial enterprise, need for liability insurance, and any related permitting requirements.
4. Reloading ammunition and manufacturing ammunition are two different things. There is some grey here. Producing ammunition from all new components with the intent of selling it for profit is a clear and concise description of manufacturing ammunition. Reloading a previously expended cartridge provided by the other party (usually the brass case) for a reasonable charge for the cost of components used, and not done with the express intent of profit is NOT considered manufacturing by the ATF. This is where it would be up to you to dig into your local laws. So, TLDR; Reloading ammo with the intent of selling it for profit, especially if you use all new components, may constitute manufacturing. Reloading for you friends that bring you their brass, and reimburse you for the cost of the components is not manufacturing, but may not be legal in your state or local jurisdiction.
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The requirements around a Type 6 FFL are quite onerous. The inspections alone are killer.
 
Some of my buddies are so desperate for ammo that they stopped begging me for my stuff and now really busting my chops to sell it to them. I told them I will never do it...at any price.

Hope I do not lose friendships over the issue.
 
gifbohane said:
Some of my buddies are so desperate for ammo that they stopped begging me for my stuff and now really busting my chops to sell it to them. I told them I will never do it...at any price.

Hope I do not lose friendships over the issue.
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nice
 
gifbohane said:
Some of my buddies are so desperate for ammo that they stopped begging me for my stuff and now really busting my chops to sell it to them. I told them I will never do it...at any price.

Hope I do not lose friendships over the issue.
Click to expand...
Easy solution buddy...tell them you'll be more than happy load up some for them......all they have to do is bring the brass, bullets, powder, and primers over to your house. By the time they can score primers.....they'll be able to buy ammo again. No loss of friendship, you were the bigger man and offered to help. Not you fault they coudn't follow through, hahahaha.
 
GooseGestapo said:
Circa 1992, the price was raised to $500/yr for new or renewal per executive order (sound familiar?...)
The National Retail Firearms Dealers Association (iirc) filed a suit against the ATF and administration claiming harm. They prevailed in court and the fee was reset to $30/yr. In the meantime, (18mos) I had no choice but to send in my records and cease operations. So, you were right, but not around for THAT goat rope...
With a wife and two kids, and another career (Law Enforcement no less!) I couldn’t afford to go jousting with the ATF...
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In '92 I was beg, borrowing, and stealing reloading components from MWR sportsman's clubs and range swap meets at ever Kacern in Germany so I could shoot every weekend while stationed. Then I discovered the gun shop and indoor range in Karlovy Vary, Czech Republic. I could get a pound of powder for two bucks, a thousand primers for a buck, and all the projectiles I could ever ask for. To keep this on topic......the only brand of actual labeled ammo on the shelf was S&B........every thing else was home rolled ammo in plastic bags. Cheap as you could possibly imagine. Because......no regulation of ammo sales....at all. Period. Of course, the powder was made in E Europe...there was only a few types...basically the same as primers, lol. Fast or slow pistol, and fast or slow rifle. Load data was available written on notebook pages taped to the counter..you had to hand copy it. And it was in Czech. I prolly shot 50K rounds ea of .45 and .38 loaded with ammo from that shop. That powder was like old school unique..with extra charcoal added....man that stuff was stinky and dirty.
 
I have the press (Dillon 550B), and I have a small group who buy components, and use my press. I watch and Kibitz every round made. They use their components, supply their own boxes, and we all enjoy fresh ammo and good fellowship. I also give my Grands a lesson on my press, and watch them load their stock. I will not give any reloads away...can't afford to, and certainly won't sell any.
 
ducky123 said:
If the round itself caused the issue, probably not. If the round did NOT cause the issue, then probably.
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Lawsuits are simple; as the Plaintiff include anyone even remotely involved in the transaction, the reloader, the powder manufacturer, the owner of the firearm, the one with the deepest pockets will bubble to the top as he has the most to lose. Ultimately you’ll be dealing with an insurance company suing you to recover their losses.

That being said, beyond insurance there are a number of legal tactics to protect your assets. If you’re adjudicated to be negligent, you’re gonna have a problem.

I don’t agree with reloaded vs remanufactured. If you were involved in a suit Plaintiff is going to hang out the dry if you were not license to manufacture, as courts have no understanding of reloaded and remanufactured , I suggest a type of 06 or type 7FFL.
 
IMAhobbyist said:
Whenever I see threads regarding sharing of reloads, someone always comes up with the legal liability cost issue. For any of those who may be reading this, have you ever sold a used firearm or would you destroy one first before allowing possible liability risk to arise from such sale or gift?
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Would you apply this same thinking to selling a used car? A bunch of people die from driving used cars. How about a power saw? A whole bunch of fingers are lost to misusing used power saws. Anybody can sue for any reason, even hot coffee...
 
In the late 70's when I first started shooting center fire pistol ammo my friends and I could only afford reloads. We would return 50 empty brass cases and I believe paid $3.50 for 50 rounds of 38 Special or 45 ACP. I remember clearly that at least one or more of the cases in every box of reloads were slightly cracked and we shot them all without thinking twice. Eventually we bought a Lee hand loading kit (the one that needs a hammer) & and we reloaded hundreds of rounds of 38 Special wadcutters with it for several years. Later we bought better reloading setups which we are still in use today. This process started 50 years ago and other than the occasional dud round none of us ever had an accident resulting from poorly reloaded ammo.

It's very interesting to see how widely opinions vary on this subject. I am still not convinced one way or the other on this but for now if I decide to reload a few boxes to sell to my friends it will definitely be restricted to my friends only. The funny thing is that the guy that came up with the idea is an attorney.
 
EricBu said:
Let's be clear...that guy wasn't a "reloader" he was flat out manufacturing. He had a HUGE setup, was selling at gun shows, selling to local shops, and selling online. He was way off the reservation........beyond any stretch of the rules, and had no viable defense at all.....hell, his website was still up and running when he was arrested. LOL, the genius even had branded, custom printed boxes...which is how they caught him.....the vegas shooter still had ammo in the original boxes with the guys name and addy on them.
Click to expand...

Also lifted Haig's fingerprints on unfired rounds in the hotel room.

I had a type 06 FFL through 2009, components dried up after Obama was elected, insurance prices were insane, so I folded. Plus, by then, pulldowns had changed to mangle, instead of recover, so our supply of pull-down components was drying up as well.
 
What you do is have them bring your their brass, some bullets that can be used, they buy some powder and primers from you since primers and powder cant really be found anywhere and you reload their brass for them and charge them a small fee.
Ideally they would bring you the primers, brass, powder, bullets and you would assemble them for a small fee. But these are not ideal times. But if they do frequent gun shops you can have them smurf for you and call you if they do find powder or primers. That's how I got my keg of Win 760 one of the guys who I helped set up to run 9mm on a progressive called me telling me he found kegs of winchester 760 for $250. I just about swallowed my dip.
 
NMexJim said:
The requirements around a Type 6 FFL are quite onerous. The inspections alone are killer.
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I never was inspected, once, during the entire time in which I carried multiple FFL types. After my initial inspection, until the time I closed shop and sent my bound books to the ATF recordkeeping center for final disposition, I never once had an audit of any kind.

I'm 100% positive that on at least one occasion (and probably more) an undercover ATF agent walked through the door of the gun shop or stopped at our table at gun shows. There were a small number of obvious checks they did from time to time - to see how we'd handle different situations. But no overt, "we are auditing you" ever happened.

ETA: That's not to say that audits are onerous affairs, I imagine they are. Several other local FFL's went through them and none of them mentioned they were a particularly pleasant experience! Just saying that a type 06 doesn't (or at least, *didn't*) automatically make things worse.

Even after I closed up shop and mailed in my bound books, I never even heard anything more from the ATF. There wasn't an exit interview or anything. Just verified they got the records by the certified mail, and it's been 12 years now without a peep out of them, so I assume I did a fantastic job? LOL!
 
It's very interesting to see how widely opinions vary on this subject. I am still not convinced one way or the other on this but for now if I decide to reload a few boxes to sell to my friends it will definitely be restricted to my friends only. The funny thing is that the guy that came up with the idea is an attorney.[/QUOTE]

Friends or not if something happens and a gun gets destroyed or someone gets hurt shooting your reloads things wil most likely go badly. If someone is killed their widow and heirs will not care that you were doing a favor for their loved one all they will care about is getting compensated for their loss. If you have no liability insurance then that compensation comes from you. You could end up loosing everything you have worked for. This may sound harsh for stuff among friends but unfortunately its the reality we live in.
Todd
 
Todd NE WY said:
It's very interesting to see how widely opinions vary on this subject. I am still not convinced one way or the other on this but for now if I decide to reload a few boxes to sell to my friends it will definitely be restricted to my friends only. The funny thing is that the guy that came up with the idea is an attorney.
Click to expand...

Friends or not if something happens and a gun gets destroyed or someone gets hurt shooting your reloads things wil most likely go badly. If someone is killed their widow and heirs will not care that you were doing a favor for their loved one all they will care about is getting compensated for their loss. If you have no liability insurance then that compensation comes from you. You could end up loosing everything you have worked for. This may sound harsh for stuff among friends but unfortunately its the reality we live in.
Todd[/QUOTE]
what’s that saying...

No Good deed goes unpunished
 
EricBu said:
Reloading for you friends that bring you their brass, and reimburse you for the cost of the components is not manufacturing, but may not be legal in your state or local jurisdiction.
Click to expand...

Thats what I do for a couple of friends. Their brass and primers, my powder and time, and we split the costs of bullets.
 
mdi said:
Would you apply this same thinking to selling a used car? A bunch of people die from driving used cars. How about a power saw? A whole bunch of fingers are lost to misusing used power saws. Anybody can sue for any reason, even hot coffee...
Click to expand...
If you built the car from parts, yes.
If you rebuilt the saw, yes.
Anything modified from the factory leaves the seller potentially liable Life is risk.
 
Bayou52 said:
Another work-around if you, as a known reloader, are asked for reloaded ammo from a friend/acquaintance: tell them that for liability purposes, you can't give them the ammo, but that they are invited to come over and make their own ammunition themselves. No one ever does, in my experience, at least...

Bayou52
Click to expand...

In my last house, I set up a second bench with extra gear I never used because so many folks had taken me up on that offer. I even had a guy who would fly from Minnesota to Kansas for a week, twice per year to reload large batches of his own ammo on my gear.
 
Varminterror said:
In my last house, I set up a second bench with extra gear I never used because so many folks had taken me up on that offer. I even had a guy who would fly from Minnesota to Kansas for a week, twice per year to reload large batches of his own ammo on my gear.
Click to expand...
Was he a pleasant guest?
 
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