Biden to target 'ghost guns,' stabilizing braces in new gun control actions

Spats McGee said:

I see that the term has already been explained. FWIW, the phrase first came to my attention because of Kevin de Leon, a California Senator:


I nominate @TomJ for The Understatement of The Day award.

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Bad manners to post a 20-minute vid with no cliffs

Esp cause I’m from LA and I was curious what de Leon said

LA is different from other places. If you draw a gun in that County, you are the bad guy.

You are free to defend yourself later on in Court if you please, and you can tell your fascinating self-defense story to your heart’s content, because you and the judge and everyone in the courtroom understands that YOU are the bad guy. Got it? Good, now the Defendant may continue — Counsel, if you please...

pairof44sp said:

I still don’t get it. Isn’t there some component that still always gets the serial number?

Or you mean that people are just machining these things from scratch like they’re living in Pakistan?

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No serial number. Antis want certain parts to have a serial number and be subject to a background check.

Spats McGee said:

I nominate @TomJ for The Understatement of The Day award.

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What do I get?

Ghost guns I can almost understand, but the brace is another item altogether. They were originally designed/built by a veteran if I’m remembering correctly, he needed a way to hold his AR as he either lost his arm in combat or lost use of it…either way it’s an “aid” to people with limited use of one hand/arm. I think this portion will make it to a higher court, maybe supreme, but its any bodies guess. Another thing…I would think the ADA would be on board with this as well, but I’m not holding my breath on that happening.

pairof44sp said:

Thank you for the info.

You know, in 20 years of investigations, I never saw a murder case that was cracked by working with a firearms serial number.

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But, they do it on "Law and Order" all the time... isn't that like real life?

castile said:

And that gun once made is tattooed to your rear end. You can not sell it or give it away unless you do put a serial no on it and register it with ATF.

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Might want to read up on why this isn't correct.

Once again, the ADA has been covered. First, the braces are being used primarily for SBRs. Second, tie them to the disabled and the issue is solved by requiring a doctor's certification as for a parking permit. You don't get one unless you get the approval. How does that help?

Either you legislatively free up SBRs or the Courts find against the rule - fat chance of either.

GE-Mini-Gun said:

Ghost guns I can almost understand, but the brace is another item altogether. They were originally designed/built by a veteran if I’m remembering correctly, he needed a way to hold his AR as he either lost his arm in combat or lost use of it…either way it’s an “aid” to people with limited use of one hand/arm. I think this portion will make it to a higher court, maybe supreme, but its any bodies guess. .

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Sigh.
Again (as I posted in #52), no federal law grants an exemption from firearms laws to the disabled, to veterans, to amputees', to the dyslexic, to the deaf, blind, paraplegic or anyone of a thousand other disabilities......you have to follow the same laws. Who designed a device is immaterial, who its intended for is immaterial, whether its regulated under federal law IS material.

If you invented a new drug that ended all pain and suffering, yet is classified as a Narcotic under federal law, it doesn't allow you to hand out free samples or sell it over the counter
at 7-11. Federal law regulates how such drugs are sold, used, prescribed, etc.

Another thing…I would think the ADA would be on board with this as well, but I’m not holding my breath on that happening

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As I mentioned in post 52, the ADA has NOTHING to do with firearms. NOTHING. Again, NOTHING. The ADA is about protections against discrimination to Americans with disabilities. The ADA also requires employers to provide reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities, and imposes accessibility requirements on public accommodations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990

Building a gun range open to the public? The ADA may require accessibility for those in wheelchairs. It doesn't require you to provide arm braces on your rental guns.

GEM said:

Once again, the ADA has been covered. First, the braces are being used primarily for SBRs. Second, tie them to the disabled and the issue is solved by requiring a doctor's certification as for a parking permit. You don't get one unless you get the approval. How does that help?

Either you legislatively free up SBRs or the Courts find against the rule - fat chance of either.

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Or hopefully it remains the vague, inexplicit thing that it is. Given that the last 2 are unlikely, I'm hoping for that.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA)

permits an unlicensed individual to make a firearm for personal use, but not for sale or distribution. However, the law does not explicitly preclude an unlicensed person from later selling, giving away, or otherwise transferring a homemade firearm to another person as long as it was originally intended for personal use. A gun explicitly made for personal use can be sold or transferred in the same way that a factory-made firearm of that same class can be sold or transferred.
Go ahead and try it. You are gambling with high stakes. Selling a post 68 non serial no gun is a very high risk and you are just asking for trouble. When I called ATF thay said if I put a identifying mark on it and let them know of the mark or serial no and who manufactured it. Just like on SBR I have to put engraved my trust name and maker and location. So to be clear the short answer is no you can not, the long one is it gets complicated fast.

Sistema1927 said:

Anyone who believes that anything that Joe Biden proposed today will stop any criminal is delusional at best or an idiot at worst. Smoke and mirrors that might make some people "feel" better but do nothing to attack the root causes of violence.

The way that things are going, with the addition of more and more useless laws and regulations, we are going to end up with an "Irish Democracy" where people don't even bother to obey the laws anymore. For example, if owning a pistol brace is going to give you 10 years in the pokey and a $20K fine, why not just go whole hog and make an unregistered full auto weapon? If the gun banners think that milling out an 80% lower is a trivial exercise, they have no clue about the ease of some full auto conversions.

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The highly educated and enlightened sort of people will tell you that you can go to a gun show and the NRA will sell you a fully semi automatic assault rifle with no background check. For a few extra dollars they will also sell you a kit to convert it into a machine gun within a few minutes. Facebook and Twitter said so. They have a college degree in gender studies, live in the big city, and have a subscription to New Yorker magazine. You are a dumb hick that lives in the woods. You need them to decide what is best for you.

Go to some of the liberal websites and see what they are saying about this. Read the comments on the articles. Those people are convinced that what Biden just did will end gun crime. Just like every other gun control law in the past did. You have to realize how much better they are than you. These are the people that spent 8 years in college and went $150,000 into debt and now have a degree in modern dance. That is a lot of education. These are people that check instagram every half hour so they are very highly informed in what is going on in the world. They live in the big city and go to trendy restaurants. They know quite a lot about guns. They are on the e-mail list for Moms Hate Guns and America so they are very well informed on the issue. But they are highly enlightened so they do their own research. That is how they know that milling out a 80% lower really is a trivial exercise. After all the You Tube video is only 6 minutes long.

Shanghai McCoy said:

But, they do it on "Law and Order" all the time... isn't that like real life?

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That's cause tv criminals in NYC are stupid and use their own handguns that are registered with the NYPD to commit murders

GEM said:

The ideas are twofold:

1. The guns are avoiding the NICS check. That check is to slow down entry of new guns into the criminal market. So expanding the coverage of NICS is the goal. You can debate whether you support the initial NICS check for purchases or not.

2. Second, in solving a crime tracing the gun back to the origin sales point might enable to trace the gun back to how it ended up with the criminal. You can debate whether you think this is a worthwhile enterprise.

Anyway, that is criminal law intent.

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No debate needed. I am fully aware of what "they" want to do.

I will say that

I do not think most criminals use new homemade Polymer 80 handguns. They somehow manage to bypass NCIS checks before the Poly 80 guns were around. Heck many of the recent shootings have been by people that PASSED a background check!

A brace on a AR pistol does not make it a concealable weapon nor a short barrel rifle for what ever that is worth,

Elkins45 said:

I’m pretty sure I had my Polymer80 faux Glock done in less than 30 minutes. Drill three holes and trim a little bit of plastic, then insert the parts. Truthfully I’m amazed the P80 kits ever passed muster as 80% because they feel more like 95% to me.
View attachment 990659

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What was wrong with the Glock Frame. You already had the Slide, barrel and firing group parts,??

Heck there is a guy on YouTube that mad and ENTIRE AR out of beer cans, He melted the cans, machined the receiver etc etc. Granted he was a tool and die maker and had skills and equipment.

castile said:

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA)
permits an unlicensed individual to make a firearm for personal use, but not for sale or distribution. However, the law does not explicitly preclude an unlicensed person from later selling, giving away, or otherwise transferring a homemade firearm to another person as long as it was originally intended for personal use. A gun explicitly made for personal use can be sold or transferred in the same way that a factory-made firearm of that same class can be sold or transferred.

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Correct, but above you wrote "You can not sell it or give it away unless you do put a serial no on it and register it with ATF."
That's incorrect. You linked to the US Code, but the US Code isn't the same as ATF regulations. While both are useful, they serve different purposes. And the purpose you need to read up on is found in ATF regs.
The only firearms requiring registration with ATF are NFA firearms. https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...-firearm-or-remove-name-firearms-registration And those firearms have marking requirements beyond just the serial#. See CFR479.101

Go ahead and try it. You are gambling with high stakes. Selling a post 68 non serial no gun is a very high risk and you are just asking for trouble. When I called ATF thay said if I put a identifying mark on it and let them know of the mark or serial no and who manufactured it. Just like on SBR I have to put engraved my trust name and maker and location. So to be clear the short answer is no you can not, the long one is it gets complicated fast.

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Homemade Title I firearms do not require a serial# because there is no ATF regulation that says so. Sure ATF would love for you to put your name on it, but they love a lot of things that no law actually requires.

What ATF regs and the US Code clearly DO require is that anyone manufacturing or making firearms for the purposes of resale.......needs to be licensed as a manufacturer. That means abiding by the marking requirements in 479.101

So from my agent friend - a paraphrase. Recall he is a totally progun person, I know well.

1. Recovering 80% receivers at crime scenes, from criminals / prohibited persons, used in crime - is a real and growing trend reported by various LEOs.

2. They are attractive to bad folks

3. In places where guns are hard to come by like CA and NY, P80s are right up there and becoming increasingly common

4. They see crooks making 80% guns for themselves, building them for prohibited persons (at a high price), extremist groups of the left and right building them and assisting other members to build them.

5. 3D printer stuff isn't worth it with the 80% receivers available.

Thus, that's what's out there from a real person in the know. This is for your information and for your policy discussions. Don't say this is antigun BS because it isn't.

I wondered how long it would take to get attention on ghost guns. Its just too easy for criminals to get them. Not that I am for regulation but I can see it coming down the pike.

If the poor devil knew how hard and expensive it was to make a "Ghost gun" he would be on to some other cause....just go on down to the corner an buy one from another criminal for a lot less time and effort..

Rule3 said:

What was wrong with the Glock Frame. You already had the Slide, barrel and firing group parts,??

Heck there is a guy on YouTube that mad and ENTIRE AR out of beer cans, He melted the cans, machined the receiver etc etc. Granted he was a tool and die maker and had skills and equipment.

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I didn’t have the other stuff. I bought it on eBay. That was before all the craziness when it was still cheap.

Well, without reading the proposal "to find out what's in it," are they covering the pistol lanyard as a stabilizing device?

Also, the rifle sling? I always used the "hasty sling" afield:



How about sandbags? They're certainly stabilizing devices.

Terry, 230RN

Pic credit in properties... a darned good article.

GEM said:

So from my agent friend - a paraphrase. Recall he is a totally progun person, I know well.

1. Recovering 80% receivers at crime scenes, from criminals / prohibited persons, used in crime - is a real and growing trend reported by various LEOs.

2. They are attractive to bad folks

3. In places where guns are hard to come by like CA and NY, P80s are right up there and becoming increasingly common

4. They see crooks making 80% guns for themselves, building them for prohibited persons (at a high price), extremist groups of the left and right building them and assisting other members to build them.

5. 3D printer stuff isn't worth it with the 80% receivers available.

Thus, that's what's out there from a real person in the know. This is for your information and for your policy discussions. Don't say this is antigun BS because it isn't.

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I really mean no offense, but I have zero reason to believe any of those 5 points are true.
Not to mention even if was true the bad guys aren’t going to just say “welp, can’t get a P80. I guess no gun for me.” Banning them wouldn’t matter.

I’ll still say it’s antigun BS, because no one (to my knowledge) has sighted any statistics, facts, scientific studies, alphabet soup agency data or anything at all that indicates “ghost guns” are a common problem.

fwiw, I have zero interest in a P80, don’t own one and don’t care to.

GEM said:

So from my agent friend - a paraphrase. Recall he is a totally progun person, I know well.

1. Recovering 80% receivers at crime scenes, from criminals / prohibited persons, used in crime - is a real and growing trend reported by various LEOs.

2. They are attractive to bad folks

3. In places where guns are hard to come by like CA and NY, P80s are right up there and becoming increasingly common

4. They see crooks making 80% guns for themselves, building them for prohibited persons (at a high price), extremist groups of the left and right building them and assisting other members to build them.

5. 3D printer stuff isn't worth it with the 80% receivers available.

Thus, that's what's out there from a real person in the know. This is for your information and for your policy discussions. Don't say this is antigun BS because it isn't.

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If this is the case then it shouldn't be too hard for you to show some proof!
SC45-70

I'm just amazed at the number of members here that support banning 80%, bumpstocks, and pistol braces. Remember:

If you don't support everyone's rights, you're not supporting your own.

"And when they came for me, their was no one left to speak out."