Black Powder vs Pyrodex vs Triple 777 - Least corrosive?

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BS; experience by those that use different types of “BP” should not be dismissed offhand, unless you are biased against certain powders. If this topic has been discussed “exhaustively”, why are you bothering to respond to the topic? Are we wasting your forum space? Da-n, let folks talk without your AO. Thank you!
 
BS; experience by those that use different types of “BP” should not be dismissed offhand, unless you are biased against certain powders. If this topic has been discussed “exhaustively”, why are you bothering to respond to the topic? Are we wasting your forum space? Da-n, let folks talk without your AO. Thank you!

So, you deem to think your opinion is more valuable than the extensive information posted in the link you didn't bother to read. Talk about corrosive...
 
“Corrosive” is something that rubs off the wrong way on someone that does not share your opinion, or trust the “science”. I’ll stick with my first-hand experience; and I’m not insecure with it, like some others. Let it go fella; your ego is very obnoxious. Let’s agree to disagree, ok?
 
No issues with any of the three if I clean my gun promptly. In the cases that I don't, for example I get a deer late in the day, get home, hang and skin it -- I'll douse my gun in WD-40 and clean it the next day. Usually in that case I'll douse my gun in the field knowing I'll be too tired at the end of the day to deal with it after dealing with the deer. And this is in the PNW where I was likely hunting in the rain all day.

The only time I've had corrosion issues were one: cleaning with HOT soapy water that evaporated in seconds, followed by flash rust, or two when I was shooting at the range and some fouling or powder drifted into my range bag. In the latter case this occurred with my stainless Super Blackhawk. Pitted the Hell out of it because I didn't think I got any BP in the range bag and I didn't shoot the Blackhawk that day so I didn't bother to look at it for several days. When I did pull it out I was pretty shocked. The upside of the episode is I don't waste money on stainless BP guns -- they will rot any way with neglect. Clean your carbon steel gun promptly and all is well.

Neglect is more of an issue than any of the three propellents in my experience. All of that said, I run BP in my traditional guns and 777 in my inlines. I have no use for pyrodex these days, but did use it in the past extensively and if I had nothing else I'd use it again except in my flintlocks lacking anything better.
 
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My muzzleloader cleaning method is non-traditional, different and controversial.

Decades ago i read an article by Mike Venturino, the black powder editor of Shooting Times magazine. Mike uses Windex with vinegar to clean his black powder guns. Windex with vinegar, now Windex Multisurface, contains about three percent acetic acid. Mike cut the Windex with vinegar with water, i don't do that.

Some will claim that Windex with vinegar will ruin the gun blue, it don't. i use the same method with my antique Colt and Winchester guns with no problems.

When Windex with vinegar hits the black powder or black powder substitute crud it often fizzes. The acid in the Windex destroys the residue which is base. Some of the CASS guys spray their entire revolvers with Windex with vinegar between matches then wipe the gun down.

My system:

1. Before leaving the range the bore is swabbed with a patch wet with Windex with vinegar.
2. At home the bore is dry patched.
3. Bore is swabbed with a patch wet with tap water.
4. Bore is dry patched.
5. Bore is swabbed with a patch moist with WD-40.

i often used Windex with vinegar to loosen stuck breech plugs. Sprayed the stuff down the bore and allowed the rifle to sit for a few days. The breech plug always came out.
 
GOEX for me.

1.shoot
2.remove cylinder and nipples
3.clean with hot water and DAWN, or Ballistol/water mix
4.tea kettle rinse with very hot water, bore and cylinder
5.lay in front of fan to quickly dry
6.lightly lube with Ballistol

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Could be the type and amount of lube used “during” the shooting sessions has a degree of effect also. I use black powder but also felt wads with a beeswax compound. The lube doesn’t all burn off enough is deposited/ mixed with the residue to make a difference. I rarely clean the revolvers on the same day of shooting, the next day but on rare occasions it’s been two or three. No rust.
 
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All black powder and it’s substitutes are corrosive and hygroscopic.
No one said it wasn't but isn't that like saying that all fire is hot? The question is not whether fire is hot but rather, how hot is it?


Anecdotal claims that one sub or that black powder is less hygroscopic or less corrosive are just that: anecdotal, and unsupported by extensive scientific research.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I didn't see anything there that suggested there was or wasn't a difference. So what is left but our own personal experience? I would suggest that anyone who doesn't think 777 not only fouls less but is less corrosive to try it. In fact, I would say that the corrosive properties of percussion caps far outweighs that of the powder.
 
No one said it wasn't but isn't that like saying that all fire is hot? The question is not whether fire is hot but rather, how hot is it?



Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I didn't see anything there that suggested there was or wasn't a difference. So what is left but our own personal experience? I would suggest that anyone who doesn't think 777 not only fouls less but is less corrosive to try it. In fact, I would say that the corrosive properties of percussion caps far outweighs that of the powder.

And yet, the corrosive residue of T7 is the same corrosive residue from percussion caps.

All black powder and all substitutes are hygroscopic and leave corrosive residue. There is no evidence to suggest that the residue of any black powder or substitute is less corrosive than others. Anecdotes and opinions don’t change those facts.

Therefore, people should use any black powder or substitute that they like or have access to and clean thoroughly after use.
 
“Corrosive” is something that rubs off the wrong way on someone that does not share your opinion, or trust the “science”. I’ll stick with my first-hand experience; and I’m not insecure with it, like some others. Let it go fella; your ego is very obnoxious. Let’s agree to disagree, ok?

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

The fact is that the residue of each and every black powder and its substitutes is in fact corrosive.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/corrosive

The previous exhaustive discussion of the subject linked above, that you continue to ignore, demonstrates the corrosive residue in each black powder and substitute.

You don’t get to have an opinion on demonstrated fact. It is immutable. Whether you trust science or not does not change the truth. It simply renders your bizarre opinions even less relevant.
 
And yet, the corrosive residue of T7 is the same corrosive residue from percussion caps.

All black powder and all substitutes are hygroscopic and leave corrosive residue. There is no evidence to suggest that the residue of any black powder or substitute is less corrosive than others. Anecdotes and opinions don’t change those facts.

Therefore, people should use any black powder or substitute that they like or have access to and clean thoroughly after use.
Yeah, I "trust science" but this ain't CNN. I don't trust anything blindly and without question. Nor do I arbitrarily dismiss information that conflicts with said science. What you accept as "fact" I consider highly questionable. IMHO, any "scientific study" that concludes that there is no difference is fundamentally flawed. Because I have seen the difference with my own eyes. I have even had to replace a barrel that didn't get cleaned for a year. The issue wasn't the whole bore due to 777 fouling, it was the areas that came in direct contact with fouling from the percussion caps.
 
How do you rationalize this?

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How do you rationalize this?

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A single exposure study of dubious source offers nothing better than your anecdotal musings.

The link I provided to the previous exhaustive discussion of this issue provides unassailable evidence that they all leave corrosive hygroscopic residue. And while you assert that it is the corrosive salts from caps that are most corrosive, those salts, chief among them potassium perchlorate, are the exact same ones that are a residue of Triple 7 combustion !!!

Whether you are just stubborn or pimping for T7 is immaterial. They all produce corrosive and hygroscopic residue. Anecdotal musings do not constitute a basis for declaring that one is less corrosive than the other and you contradict yourself by insisting potassium perchlorate (cap and corrosive primer residue) is most corrosive but Triple 7, the residue from which is in fact potassium perchlorate, is least corrosive.

Stick to leatherwork. You’re very talented. Leave the science stuff to others.
 
The link I provided to the previous exhaustive discussion of this issue provides unassailable evidence that they all leave corrosive hygroscopic residue. And while you assert that it is the corrosive salts from caps that are most corrosive, those salts, chief among them potassium perchlorate, are the exact same ones that are a residue of Triple 7 combustion !!!
NOBODY said they don't. Never. Ever. Anywhere. As I already said, the question is not whether or not fire is hot. The question is "how hot is it?". Since you decided to make it personal, I'll respond accordingly. The crap you quoted does nothing more than confirm what we already knew. That they all leave corrosive fouling. Yes, fire is hot. Thank you Captain Obvious. What the information you posted does NOT even address is "how hot?". Because, judging by the anecdotal evidence you're so quick to dismiss would seem to indicate, that there is a difference between them. Whether it's the volume of a particular substance or substances, or a combination thereof. It would seem to me, although I'm just a dumbass apparently, is that you are reaching conclusions not indicated in the "science" you swallowed so hard.


Stick to leatherwork. You’re very talented. Leave the science stuff to others.
“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.” ― Margaret Thatcher

Let's stick to the subject at hand and leave the petty personal crap to the children.
 
NOBODY said they don't. Never. Ever. Anywhere. As I already said, the question is not whether or not fire is hot. The question is "how hot is it?". Since you decided to make it personal, I'll respond accordingly. The crap you quoted does nothing more than confirm what we already knew. That they all leave corrosive fouling. Yes, fire is hot. Thank you Captain Obvious. What the information you posted does NOT even address is "how hot?". Because, judging by the anecdotal evidence you're so quick to dismiss would seem to indicate, that there is a difference between them. Whether it's the volume of a particular substance or substances, or a combination thereof. It would seem to me, although I'm just a dumbass apparently, is that you are reaching conclusions not indicated in the "science" you swallowed so hard.



“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.” ― Margaret Thatcher

Let's stick to the subject at hand and leave the petty personal crap to the children.

You insist that Triple 7 is less corrosive than BP or other substitutes. It is not. The chief corrosive residue of T7 is potassium perchlorate, the same corrosive salt left by caps and corrosive primers. Stop suggesting T7 is somehow “less corrosive”.

Whether or not you can understand the science that makes that a fact is irrelevant. If you cannot, don’t denigrate those who can. If you chose not, do not elevate your willful ignorance to a virtue.
 
Do you want to get this thread shutdown and make enemies in the process? Is it that important to you? Have you ever even used 777 or are you just taking this crap you read as gospel? Because it seems to me, as I said above, you are making conclusions not indicated in the study.

There is a difference. I know there's a difference. The question is why. What you have quoted does not answer that question. Can you not comprehend that? Are these chemicals left in varying amounts? In different combinations? You can't get bent outta shape just because people don't swallow the same pill without question.

I don't care a thing in the world about "pimping" one powder over another. Don't care what you or anybody else uses. In fact, I don't even use substitutes any more because I mostly shoot flintlocks now. So calm down.
 
In fact, I would say that the corrosive properties of percussion caps far outweighs that of the powder.

Your words.

The corrosive salts of percussion caps are chiefly potassium perchlorate. The principle corrosive salt residue of Triple7 is potassium perchlorate. Therefore, in your own words, the corrosive properties of Triple 7 residue far outweighs that of other powder residues.

Again, whether you are pimping for T7, simply cannot understand the subject matter, or do understand but have backed yourself into a corner and insist on contradicting both established fact and your own words is immaterial. You have no evidence that T7 is less corrosive and your own statement contradicts that your baseless opinion. Just stop writing silly things.

I have used T7 and will use it again if BP is not available. I will clean after use in the same manner that I would after using Black Powder. Because all Black Powder and all substitutes are hygroscopic and corrosive and all can be effectively cleaned in the same manner. Any firearm in which black powder or a substitute has been fired will experience corrosion if not cleaned of the corrosive salts left by their combustion.
 
IME: Black powder and Pyrodex are equally corrosive, either is capable of ruining your gun unless promptly cleaned.

Poppycock!

I have been shooting real Black Powder in my guns since 1968.

Yes, I am lazy and seldom clean them right away. I try to clean them within a week. I am not going to admit here in public how long I have occasionally allowed my guns to sit without cleaning, suffice it to say it is far more than one week.

Bottom line: I have discovered over the years that not cleaning my guns immediately will not reduce them to a pile of rust.

I try to clean them within a week.

Also, I never use the word 'neutralize' when referring to cleaning Black Powder fouling. The key here is dilution, not neutralizing. Using plenty of water, fouling gets dissolved and washed away. Neutralizing, changing the pH to 7, does not even enter into the conversation.

Most of my BP shooting these days is with cartridges. Years ago, when corrosive primers were common, BP fouling coupled with corrosive primers made the fouling more corrosive. We do not use corrosive primers anymore, and BP fouling is no where near as corrosive as most shooters believe.

I do rinse out my brass within a few hours of shooting or it will turn green with verdigris if left unrinsed overnight. Again, dilution is the key, not neutralizing.

All this is my experience with real Black Powder.

I have no experience with Pyrodex, have only read about how nasty it is.
 
Your words.

The corrosive salts of percussion caps are chiefly potassium perchlorate. The principle corrosive salt residue of Triple7 is potassium perchlorate. Therefore, in your own words, the corrosive properties of Triple 7 residue far outweighs that of other powder residues.

Again, whether you are pimping for T7, simply cannot understand the subject matter, or do understand but have backed yourself into a corner and insist on contradicting both established fact and your own words is immaterial. You have no evidence that T7 is less corrosive and your own statement contradicts that your baseless opinion. Just stop writing silly things.
Oh I understand perfectly. Things that ACTUALLY happened in the real world do not jive with your theory. A theory you have never actually tested. Even so, your mind is made up and not only will you not have a civil discussion about it, you'll attack personally anyone who disagrees. That is what I understand. You're not going to change the facts by bludgeoning my over the head with your opinion or implying that I am ignorant or otherwise mentally deficient. I'm a grown man and I'm not to get my feelings hurt by the words of a stranger on the internet. I'm not taking the bait either, so you can stop trying.


I have used T7 and will use it again if BP is not available. I will clean after use in the same manner that I would after using Black Powder. Because all Black Powder and all substitutes are hygroscopic and corrosive and all can be effectively cleaned in the same manner. Any firearm in which black powder or a substitute has been fired will experience corrosion if not cleaned of the corrosive salts left by their combustion.
What you're not saying is that you really do not know one way or another. You have a theory based on incomplete data. You have an idea but because you treat them all the same, which is the gist of your position, you do not really know that they are different, or how. You're just like those guys that clean their smokeless guns after every range session, whether one round was fired or a thousand. They convince themselves it's necessary and anyone who doesn't is lazy, stupid or irresponsible. They have never and would never try it any other way and words to the contrary fall on deaf ears.


I have no experience with Pyrodex, have only read about how nasty it is.
I've never tried it either but every single thing I've ever read or heard was that it was nastier than the real thing. For some poor folks, it's the only option.
 
Oh I understand perfectly. Things that ACTUALLY happened in the real world do not jive with your theory. A theory you have never actually tested. Even so, your mind is made up and not only will you not have a civil discussion about it, you'll attack personally anyone who disagrees. That is what I understand. You're not going to change the facts by bludgeoning my over the head with your opinion or implying that I am ignorant or otherwise mentally deficient. I'm a grown man and I'm not to get my feelings hurt by the words of a stranger on the internet. I'm not taking the bait either, so you can stop trying.



What you're not saying is that you really do not know one way or another. You have a theory based on incomplete data. You have an idea but because you treat them all the same, which is the gist of your position, you do not really know that they are different, or how. You're just like those guys that clean their smokeless guns after every range session, whether one round was fired or a thousand. They convince themselves it's necessary and anyone who doesn't is lazy, stupid or irresponsible. They have never and would never try it any other way and words to the contrary fall on deaf ears.



I've never tried it either but every single thing I've ever read or heard was that it was nastier than the real thing. For some poor folks, it's the only option.


Craig, there are no theories here. There is only fact, backed up by rigorous scientific observation. The chemical residues of black powder and its substitutes have been presented. The corrosive nature of those chemical salts has been established, not in theory, but in the scientific research I presented when we exhaustively reviewed this subject previously.

Again, in your own words, you state that you believe that the residue of percussion caps is more corrosive than the chemical salts that are the residue of black powder and its substitutes. The corrosive chemical salt of percussion caps is potassium perchlorate. The corrosive chemical salts resulting from Triple 7 combustion are potassium perchlorate.

No opinions. No theories. Just facts. Address the fact that Triple 7 yields a corrosive chemical salt that you deem more corrosive than any other. That is the issue.
 
Again, in your own words, you state that you believe that the residue of percussion caps is more corrosive than the chemical salts that are the residue of black powder and its substitutes. The corrosive chemical salt of percussion caps is potassium perchlorate. The corrosive chemical salts resulting from Triple 7 combustion are potassium perchlorate.
Then what is the difference? If it's all the same, then it should all corrode the same. There shouldn't be a higher rate of corrosion on areas exposed to percussion cap fouling. But there is.

It is a theory and an untested one. All the study concludes is that the same chemicals are present. In what quantity? Does it matter? What role do the other components in the fouling play? Do you even know? The conclusion that they're all the same is yours and yours alone. It's an assumption on your part.
 
Again, Craig. Corrosion is not a theory.

It is an established fact. And the process of chemical salts causing corrosion is not a theory. It’s an established fact. And the chemical salt that you deemed most corrosive, potassium perchlorate, is the chemical salt residue of Triple 7 combustion. It is not a theory and it is not unproven. Potassium perchlorate is the chemical salt residue form corrosive primers. Are you suggesting that corrosion from primers yielding potassium perchlorate is a theory, or that the thousands of milsurp rifles with pitted bores from using corrosive primers are imaginary?

So there are no theories, Craig.
 
You think you are enlightened and that I am dense but actually the opposite is true. The theory is that they are all the same, just because the same chemicals are present. You have yet to answer a single question I asked.
 
Craig, you continue to attempt to dodge the issue that created in claiming that Triple 7 is less corrosive than other subs or black powder. Until you address the conflict between your own words assessing percussion cap residue (potassium perchlorate) as more corrosive than BP or substitute residue and the fact that the corrosive salt from the combustion of Triple 7 is potassium perchlorate, you don’t get to change the subject.
 
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