44 Mag: Seating Die Crushing HP Nose

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WrongHanded

WrongHanded

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Not all my Lee Dies seem to do this (I'll be watching more carefully from now on), but with the .44 mag seating die, I've found the hollow points of XTPs and Swift A-Frames are getting crushed. The mouth of the hollow is being constricted by the seater, and that's not good.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement die (any brand) that won't cause this issue and is compatible with the Lee Classic Turret?
 
Are you seating and crimping on the same stroke? I'd try seating a few with no crimp to see if that solves your problem. If the problem persists, you just need a different seater plug.
 
I noticed a similar problem with 9mm one time. The bullets would deform up into the seating die causing erratic OALs.

I made a totally flat seating plug from a spare I had laying around. Chucked it up in the drill press and hit it with a grinder and some files. Its not quite as precise, from an ogive perspective, as a custom fitted stem, but it works far better with hollow point bullets that the standard round nose seating stem. Extremely consistent OAL's

I use that flat stem with my Lee 380 and 38spl dies as well.
 
Legionnaire said:
Are you seating and crimping on the same stroke? I'd try seating a few with no crimp to see if that solves your problem. If the problem persists, you just need a different seater plug.
Click to expand...

No, seating and crimping are separate. The seater plug does have a conical depression in it, but it seems it's not the correct dimensions.
 
a much cheaper/easier thing to try first, pull out the seater adjuster, and turn the plug upside down. It may make the problem worse, or it may fix it, but its worth trying. Its flat on the other side, and I have done this when loading bullets with varying ogives to get consistent length
.
 
mjsdwash said:
a much cheaper/easier thing to try first, pull out the seater adjuster, and turn the plug upside down. It may make the problem worse, or it may fix it, but its worth trying. Its flat on the other side, and I have done this when loading bullets with varying ogives to get consistent length
.
Click to expand...

It is flat on the other end but it has a flange. So it won't fit into the die that way.
 
I have nothing but Lee dies. I have seen this question (topic) many times on forums. I just can not see how a Lee seating die can crush a XTP hollow point?? It would require a amount of force far greater than just seating the bullet in the case????

Never experienced it seating XTPs Gold Dots and Flex tips in many calibers???:confused:

Got pictures????
 
Rule3 said:
I have nothing but Lee dies. I have seen this question (topic) many times on forums. I just can not see how a Lee seating die can crush a XTP hollow point?? It would require a amount of force far greater than just seating the bullet in the case????

Never experienced it seating XTPs Gold Dots and Flex tips in many calibers???:confused:

Got pictures????
Click to expand...

Sure.
 
IMG_20210425_164107144_HDR.jpg IMG_20210425_164022916_HDR.jpg

240gr XTPs on left. 300gr A-Frame on right. And though they are in speedloaders, they come out of the press like that.
 
What does your expander plug measure?
I have 2 RCBS .4255" & .427" The case should not expand more then .004" after bullet seating..

Diameter of bullets can run from .429" to .430"
 
243winxb said:
What does your expander plug measure?
I have 2 RCBS .4255" & .427" The case should not expand more then .004" after bullet seating..

Diameter of bullets can run from .429" to .430"
Click to expand...

Expander plug? Do you mean in the flare die?
 
243winxb said:
Yes , if like RCBS
Click to expand...

I honestly couldn't tell you if it's like RCBS or not. I only have experience with Lee.

I can tell you that after resizing, I flare and pour powder. I set the flare die so that the bullet only barely sits into the case mouth. No issue with cast bullets of any sort. But clearly the rim of these hollow points are pretty fragile.

Perhaps there is an issue with some other part of my process, which is only showing up with these HP bullets. Maybe the resizing die is making the cases too small and causing me to have to use excessive force to seat the bullets. It doesn't seem that way, But I could be wrong.
 
243winxb said:
Yes , if like RCBS Here is a 9mm
View attachment 994624
Click to expand...

It looks nothing like that.

I did go look at some .357 and .41 mag cartridges loaded with XTPs. They are also getting a little deformed. .357 Mag with Speer GDs are not, however. But they are a different design.

I think I just need a different seater plug. A new die (from a LCT compatible brand) that doesn't do this to HPs might just be the easiest thing.
 
Okay guys. Gonna start a new more specific thread to see if I can find what I need.
 
https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase/category/reloading-dies I dont use Lee. But may help?

The Bullet Seating Plug that comes with the die set is as close to generic as we can make it. If you find that the Bullet Seating Plug deforms the nose of the bullet, or will not seat it to the proper depth, we can make a Custom Bullet Seating Plug to fit your bullet. For this we would need a sample bullet and payment of $8.00 plus any applicable taxes and Shipping/Handling.

Please note, for a Custom Bullet Seating Plug for the 50 BMG, cost is $30.00 plus any applicable taxes and Shipping/Handling.

Many times, you can make this fix yourself through the use of a drill press. Secure the seating plug under a 3/32" bit and drill further into it. The distance should never be increased more than 1/4". If this does not solve the issue, we recommend sending it to us.

Our address is:
Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway "U"
Hartford, WI 53027
Click to expand...
 
243winxb said:
https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase/category/reloading-dies I dont use Lee. But may help?
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that. I actually had already seen that on their website. I just figured another die manufacturer might have done what Lee didn't, and make a seating plug that would do this job without customizing anything.

I suppose I may just go visit the machine shop at work. I don't what to mess with the original plug, but I might buy a replacement and see about drilling into that.
 
Yep, it's just a poor fit of the seater stem to the bullet. Maybe you can use the old epoxy trick where you use it to fit the stem to the bullet. Extra stems are pretty cheap, and actually, I think Lee will make you one for a specific bullet.
mrawesome22-250 said:
RCBS dies come with flat stem and round nose stem
Click to expand...
I know my old sets did, do the new ones? The flat one should work better. Heavy neck tension can exacerbate it.
 
Alright, I ordered a couple replacement seating plugs from Lee. One cost $2 and the other was free for some reason. Had to pay shipping too of course, and they're pretty backed up right now.

Whenever they get to me, I'll flatten one. If that doesn't work I'll try changing the profile on the other.
 
Last edited:
It's the expander plug that's causing the issue. The lee expanders are about worthless.

A lee expander next to a custom expander for the 9mm's.
aFsP8TI.jpg

A lee expander next to a lyman m-die expander. You can see a ring "high water mark" on the lee expander left by the 45acp cases. That's all the further/deeper that expander goes into the 45acp cases.

The m-die's are designed to expand the case deeper so you use less force trying to force a bullet into the undersized case.
vnmkz9e.jpg

Any time I use a set of lee dies I throw out the expander die's plug and either make my own or use a m-die.

The issue you're having is that the case is not being expanded deep enough with the short lee expander plugs. That leaves the seating die to cram the bullet into the un-expanded case. What you are seeing with the crushed hp nose is how much force it is actually taking to push that bullet into the un-expanded case.
 
forrest r said:
It's the expander plug that's causing the issue. The lee expanders are about worthless.

A lee expander next to a custom expander for the 9mm's.
View attachment 994700

A lee expander next to a lyman m-die expander. You can see a ring "high water mark" on the lee expander left by the 45acp cases. That's all the further/deeper that expander goes into the 45acp cases.

The m-die's are designed to expand the case deeper so you use less force trying to force a bullet into the undersized case.
View attachment 994701

Any time I use a set of lee dies I throw out the expander die's plug and either make my own or use a m-die.

The issue you're having is that the case is not being expanded deep enough with the short lee expander plugs. That leaves the seating die to cram the bullet into the un-expanded case. What you are seeing with the crushed hp nose is how much force it is actually taking to push that bullet into the un-expanded case.
Click to expand...

I see exactly what you're saying forrest. But...

It sounds pretty counter-intuitive to design a set of dies to make a straight walled case too small, and then make it bigger again. If that's the issue, perhaps I should consider not resizing .44 mag cases at all.
 
Counter-intuitive or not that is what's happening.

Lee die's are all over the place that's why I don't buy them for strait walled cases. I do like the lee semi-auto dies & own sets for the 9mm & 45acp. The 1st thing I do to them is get rid of the expander buttons. The 2nd thing I due to them is size a couple cases and measure the sized cases. Then I hone/polish the sizing dies typically .0005" to .001" larger in diameter.

I do like their seating dies and taper crimp dies. This is why I buy the cheap lee sets of dies.

At the end of the day what you are seeing (deformed bullet noses) is from using excessive force/more force then the bullet design/material it's made out of can withstand.

I know this from hard lesions learned for swaging my own bullets from pure lead along with casting my own hp's out of 8/9bhn to use in the snubnosed revolvers/low velocity loads.

8/9bhn cast hp's like these for the 44spl's/mags deform real easy if too much pressure is exerted on them trying to seat them.
bMDc2PH.jpg

And yes I use a lyman m-die to expand my 44spl's and 44mags.
 
Walkalong said:
Might want to check that. :)
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, Lee dies are only designed to flare the case mouth. Honestly this concept of an "expander" die is totally new to me, as I've only ever used Lee dies. They call it a "powder-through flare die" or some such, which only seems to flare the case mouth. But I understand what you're both saying. And you get what you pay for.
 
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