Lead free hunting ammo

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Hunter 08

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It looks as though my home state of Minnesota is really going ham on banning lead based hunting ammo and lead sinkers for fishing. I've only found Nosler and maybe Federal, but only online. Granted I live in Nebraska now, but I may as well try to get ahead of the curve just incase something like this ends up in the pipeline here. Anyone have experience with lead free hunting ammo in recent years? Seems like it's about $1-$2.50 per round for a box of 20. I'm use to paying $17-$25 per box of 20 depending on caliber and type.
 
What do you want to know in particular?

Most lead free hunting bullets are copper. Copper is less dense than lead and so you will likely be using lighter bullets. Copper bullets tend to need higher minimum velocities in order to be able to expand. Speaking of rifle ammo only, I am not aware of any copper bullets that behave like softpoint lead core bullets. Copper bullets may expand into a nice flower shape and/or have the petals break off (if they fully expand), leaving a core that will continue to penetrated like an unexpanded slug. Manufacturers of copper bullets that have petals that commonly shear off after full expansion will claim that the sheered off petals act like multiple scythes going through the soft tissue, doing lots of destruction. That seems to be rather dubious, although they will do some damage. The problem with them breaking off is that they tend to be light weight with a lot of surface area and don't travel terribly far. How and when they break off doesn't seem to be terribly consistent. You may put two shots into the same animal and one flowers nicely and the other sheds all of its pedals.

In my limited experience, Barnes seems to be much better at staying together after full expansion after expanding than some other brands.

For whatever reason, they tend to be seen as bullets that penetrate very well. I believe (but don't know for certain) that this is because copper bullets are often slower to expand than many of their lead counterparts. Less initial expansion means less resistance and hence deeper penetration. Most people who want deep penetrating hunting ammo and overpenetration to promote good blood trails will typically like copper offerings.

Another member with more experience may come along and poke some holes in what I have said. This is just my understanding based on my limited use and hunting partners' limited use of copper hunting bullets.
 
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I don’t like monolithic bullets. I’m frugal and cup and core have never let me down. But there are plenty who like mono bullets. With with the price of copper going up, I’d expect them to become even more expensive.
 
Buy a good stash of different Barnes bullets in your caliber whenever you can and for that minimal investment, you can at least sleep easier in the thought that if anything gets legislated, you will be ready.

I am talking component bullets here too. This way you will have minimal investment and it’s a hedge against paying high prices for factory ammo that may or may not be available.

I am leaning towards going all Barnes copper bullets in the future. I already have a stash of factory 20 ga slugs and a few hundred .451 275s. This is purely by choice though because they work great.
 
There can be some advantages to using solid copper bullets and a lot of hunters swear by them even though not required by law in most places. They do tend to be more expensive, but not really any more than premium lead bullets. I handload and have experimented some with Barnes bullets. Never taken game with them. While I'd not be opposed to using them if required I just like other bullets better.

They tend to penetrate on game much deeper than conventional bullets for several reasons. For one thing in the same weight copper bullets are longer which helps with penetration. And they usually retain 100% of their weight, or very near it, after impact. Conventional lead bullets tend to lose 20-50% of their weight after impact limiting penetration. For that reason copper bullets are a good choice when using guns borderline too small for the game hunted. If elk hunting with a 243 or deer hunting with a 223 then choosing solid copper is something to consider even if not legally required.

The disadvantage is that they need to impact faster than conventional bullets to expand. Traditional bullets will still expand as slow as 1800 fps, sometimes as slow as 1600 fps, depending on the bullet. The solid copper bullets tend to need 2000 fps and most guys like 2200 fps better. Much slower and they tend to act like FMJ and give little or no expansion. At normal ranges this isn't a problem, but the solid copper bullets aren't the best choice for taking those really long 400 yard shots. You just need to look at some ballistics charts and figure out at what range they fall below 2000 fps and limit shots to that range or closer. Which is realistically farther than most people need to be shooting anyway.

For those reasons most guys recommend a bullet a little lighter than you'd normally use. A 130 gr 30 caliber copper bullet is more than adequate for deer size game. If using a 308 or 30-06 I'd probably not go above 150 gr even for elk size game. When you get into the 165 and 180 gr copper bullets you probably need to be shooting them from a 300 mag to get the needed speed.

Remember, in the same weight copper bullets are longer, which limits powder capacity and muzzle velocity. I may be able to get 2850 fps with 150 gr conventional bullets from my 308. But 2700-2750 may be the best I can do with solid copper.
 
I still can't understand the reasoning for banning lead ammo. Where is the science that justifies this? I can see banning lead shot for waterfowl, but not hunting bullets. People have been shooting lead bullets for almost 300 years. I think it is just another tactic to ban hunting and firearms, and to make it more difficult and expensive to shoot. I only hunt with traditional muzzle loaders, and lead balls are the only projectiles I shoot. There are no reasonable and affordable substitutes that I will shoot in my antique fire arms.
 
I still can't understand the reasoning for banning lead ammo. Where is the science that justifies this? I can see banning lead shot for waterfowl, but not hunting bullets. People have been shooting lead bullets for almost 300 years. I think it is just another tactic to ban hunting and firearms, and to make it more difficult and expensive to shoot. I only hunt with traditional muzzle loaders, and lead balls are the only projectiles I shoot. There are no reasonable and affordable substitutes that I will shoot in my antique fire arms.
In cali, "they" claim that a lead bullet left inside of an unrecovered animal, gut pile, etc. may be eaten by some rare buzzard they have out there, resulting in that buzzard's death. That is how it was explained to me. As far as personal experience, I shot a blacktail deer in cali with a copper Branes bullet at about 60 yards with a 300 Win mag. Shot placement was perfect. The deer didn't react on impact like I typically have seen in the past (I actually thought I may have missed), and ran a good distance before he dropped. Same day, a friend put a 270 short mag into a wild hog that ran, which I then anchored with the 300. The locals told me that this type of poor performance is typical for those copper bullets.
 
In cali, "they" claim that a lead bullet left inside of an unrecovered animal, gut pile, etc. may be eaten by some rare buzzard they have out there, resulting in that buzzard's death. That is how it was explained to me. As far as personal experience, I shot a blacktail deer in cali with a copper Branes bullet at about 60 yards with a 300 Win mag. Shot placement was perfect. The deer didn't react on impact like I typically have seen in the past (I actually thought I may have missed), and ran a good distance before he dropped. Same day, a friend put a 270 short mag into a wild hog that ran, which I then anchored with the 300. The locals told me that this type of poor performance is typical for those copper bullets.
Far as I know there are no Condors in Minnesota, and even if there were, I find it hard to believe that the few unrecovered animals with lead bullets in them are the cause for the Condor population decline. I remember my Wild Life Biology teacher saying the Condor was a doomed species due to its nesting behavior and care given to their young.
 
The California story is, like most such things, convoluted and stupid. The California condor was excuse #1, but the bottom line really is that it was just another way to screw with hunters and shooters.

As a Californian, I do have some experience with unleaded, and most of what has been written about it here is the truth as I see it. The short version is that I stopped hunting with the "big and slow" calibers which are so close to my heart, and switched to "light and fast". The all-copper bullets - the Triple Shock being the one with which I have the most experience - thrive on speed and have no practical upper limit. They definitely have a lower limit, though, below which they behave essentially like solids.

I was a bit resentful of being forced to use expensive and occasionally hard-to-find bullets, but did discover that used properly, they can be extraordinarily effective. At this point I believe a .25 caliber 100 grain TTSX started at 3500 to 3700 fps may be just about ideal for anything smaller than elk.
 
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Far as I know there are no Condors in Minnesota, and even if there were, I find it hard to believe that the few unrecovered animals with lead bullets in them are the cause for the Condor population decline.
While I am no expert on the challenges to those birds, the hunters in cali I spoke with seemed to agree with what you stated. I live in the middle of a state forest where every critter in Fl is hunted, along with lots of private land that is also heavily hunted- deer, hogs, turkey, and various other varmints, game birds, and other small game. Not to mention millions of rounds of every type of ammunition and explosives from 9mm to ordnance delivered from combat aircraft on the numerous military bases in the area. I know of no toxic issues being experienced by any wildlife as the result of lead or other products from the use of these items. And our turkey buzzards seem to be plentiful, healthy, and well-fed.
 
I guess I am against lead ammo bans as it seems unlikely the lead ammo is as bad as the anti lead proponets try to make it out. But setting that aspect to the side, I like the all copper bullets other than the price. I have been using them in 450 Bushmaster and 300 Blackout subsonic for hunting with very good results.

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This Barnes 275gr TSX was launched from my 450 Bushmaster. It went through a deer nearly lengthwise and was recovered after going through another foot of dirt. Deer fell in her tracks and never moved. 95% weight retention despite breaking her neck and two ribs. This bullet does really bad things to armadillos and raccoons too. :D

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This is the Maker Bullets 220gr REX bullet design for 300 BO subsonic. The first bullet went through a medium size armadillo and was recovered in a shallow hole of pulverized chert in a hard packed 4-wheeler track. The second bullet expanded fully in the width of a small 12 oz Gatorade bottle of water. In as a 30 cal round hole and the exit looked like a dull broad head. I have killed about a dozen armadillos with this bullet and when it hits them it sounds like hitting a truck tire with a hammer.
 
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It is good to hear of proper performance at low velocities. Do you suppose the heat treatment is different for the bullets intended for such things?
 
It is good to hear of proper performance at low velocities. Do you suppose the heat treatment is different for the bullets intended for such things?

Yes this is a fair bit of Barnes (an no doubt other all copper bullet makers) technology with their all copper bullets. You cannot harden copper by quenching it the way you can steel, the only way to harden copper is by work hardening it so how much you work it after its last annealing cycling will determine how hard the copper is in the final state. When and how often they anneal the copper during the forming process makes a big difference to the final hardness.
 
I bet more critters die from the lead deposited on the vegetation along our highways from vehicle exhaust. I don't see them banning cars.

No, they banned intentionally leaded fuel, however and are working to get rid of combustion automobiles. So no, they aren't banning cars, but are getting rid of offensive components.

With that said, it won't be long until they have another kind of offensive component to deal with, old batteries.
 
In cali, "they" claim that a lead bullet left inside of an unrecovered animal, gut pile, etc. may be eaten by some rare buzzard they have out there, resulting in that buzzard's death. That is how it was explained to me. As far as personal experience, I shot a blacktail deer in cali with a copper Branes bullet at about 60 yards with a 300 Win mag. Shot placement was perfect. The deer didn't react on impact like I typically have seen in the past (I actually thought I may have missed), and ran a good distance before he dropped. Same day, a friend put a 270 short mag into a wild hog that ran, which I then anchored with the 300. The locals told me that this type of poor performance is typical for those copper bullets.

It's not poor performance, I'm sure it had great penetration through the deer and into the dirt. :neener:

Some manufacturers have tried to make lead-free options which perform more like cup-and-cores by blowing off fragments / petals. But most people seem to think that's a bullet failure and want 100% weight retention, like it was a Cape Buffalo bullet, so it can have the maximum amount of velocity as it exits a 150 pound whitetail. In North America the two or three big lead-free options are "stick-together" bullets so if you want a type which tries to create more internal damage, you will have to go to a boutique maker like Cutting Edge or Hammer Bullets (expensive).

Maybe if lead is banned for hunting federally (it will likely happen eventually), we will see more demand for different categories of lead-free bullets. Right now a Barnes acts like a GMX which acts like an E-Tip, and with a couple similar in-house designs, that's about all there is for copper hunting bullets from big makers in North America.

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I guess I'll have run to Scheels, Cabela's, and maybe buzz over to De Soto, Iowa and check our Fleet Farm to see what they have in stock in .30-30 and .308 and try them out. With the bullets being more or less all copper in construction and a bit lighter than the standard lead based ammo, I wonder how much they'll be tossed around in the wind? May have to do some testing at an outdoor range.

I can understand why the ban on lead sinkers, but like everyone else the ban on medium and large game lead ammo doesn't make much sense. The one and only deer I've ever harvested was done within 50 yards using Remington Core-lokt 150gr .30-06 Remington 740. Hit the deer in the chest, it dropped for a moment and struggled to move and made it an additional 10 yards and collapsed. Ended up taking out a lung with the shot. Other than that, I haven't taken any shots on deer since either I wasn't ready, or I couldn't get a clean shot due to brush and couldn't see what was beyond it in case I couldve missed. If I'm not confident, I'm not taking a shot.

I guess what my point is, I fail to see the need to ban it. Other than people being careless and leaving rounds on the ground or misses....why wasn't this a bigger issue many years ago when I bet more people were out hunting.

Keep in mind, this isn't the first time they've tried to ban lead ammo in the state.

Here's the article; https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/lead-ammo-ban-minnesota
 
I keep hearing about the high price of mono-bullets. The bullets used are the “least expensive” part of hunting experience....unless your hunting in your own backyard! :)

Yes, for the majority of persons hunting “smaller” big game.....the typical cup and core, bonded, or partition type bullets are generally sufficient. However, when the game gets larger, especially if the possibility exists for a less than perfect shot angle, or a great deal of money with limited hunting time is part of the equation.....the monos start to become an important component of the hunt!

We’ve hunted with monos since the early ‘90’s, and have yet to be disappointed. The closest thing to a disappointment came about 6 or 7 years ago when my wife had to make a quick 200 +or - yard shot on a nice trophy Pronghorn. The shot from her .338 WM using a 225 grain TTSX hit just behind the shoulder but pretty low. The bullet actually encountered only about 6” of Pronghorn......not much resistance for that cartridge/bullet combination. The Pronghorn covered between 40 to 50 yards before “tipping-over”! The majority of her kills from deer/antelope to moose have been DRT. Not much more you can ask of a hunting bullet!

Neither am I buying into the lead toxicity argument. We went with the mono bullets (Barnes), simply because we thought that for our type of hunting......one bullet, one load for all of our big game we may encounter, they were the best bullets available! memtb
 
I guess I'll have run to Scheels, Cabela's, and maybe buzz over to De Soto, Iowa and check our Fleet Farm to see what they have in stock in .30-30 and .308 and try them out. With the bullets being more or less all copper in construction and a bit lighter than the standard lead based ammo, I wonder how much they'll be tossed around in the wind? May have to do some testing at an outdoor range.

I can understand why the ban on lead sinkers, but like everyone else the ban on medium and large game lead ammo doesn't make much sense. The one and only deer I've ever harvested was done within 50 yards using Remington Core-lokt 150gr .30-06 Remington 740. Hit the deer in the chest, it dropped for a moment and struggled to move and made it an additional 10 yards and collapsed. Ended up taking out a lung with the shot. Other than that, I haven't taken any shots on deer since either I wasn't ready, or I couldn't get a clean shot due to brush and couldn't see what was beyond it in case I couldve missed. If I'm not confident, I'm not taking a shot.

I guess what my point is, I fail to see the need to ban it. Other than people being careless and leaving rounds on the ground or misses....why wasn't this a bigger issue many years ago when I bet more people were out hunting.

Keep in mind, this isn't the first time they've tried to ban lead ammo in the state.

Here's the article; https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/lead-ammo-ban-minnesota
Something like this for the .3030 https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/barnes-tsx/11-P3030G.html
The .308 will be much easier to find stuff for, keep an eye out for underwood-Lehigh controlled chaos for the .308!
 
Began experimenting with monolithic bullets in about 2006. By 2010 i had loads worked up for .223, .22 Cheeta MK 2, .308, .30-06 and .50 caliber muzzleloaders..

Killed numerous wild hogs using the 53 grain .223 TSX bullets fired from .223 rifles; it works very well. The 62 grain .223 TSX bullet requires a faster twist rate for stabilization.

The 150 grain .30 caliber TSX bullet works great on hogs when fired from my .308 and .30-06 rifles. However, the 180 grain TSX bullet experienced failure to expand problems in .308 and with anything under nearly maximum loads in .30-06.

For years i've mostly hunted deer and hogs with a muzzleloader. i've killed wild hogs using a .50 caliber muzzleloader with the 225 grain .429 XPB pistol bullet in a sabot. On hogs to about 125 pounds the bullet leaves a huge exit hole. On larger hogs the petals are shed in the animals body and the bullet base exits.

i'll be switching to monolithic bullets for all my deer and wild hog hunting except for Fort Sill conventional muzzleloader season, where i'll use a patched round ball.

Those monolithic bullets leave more copper fouling in the bore but it has not posed a problem for me. .
 
I've taken couple deer with 140gr Barnes in 270 and one elk with 150 gr E-Tip in 30-06 about 10yrs ago. I had exit holes so never recover bullets. When they came out with LRX, I tried 145gr LRX in my 284 no luck with it. Sierra owns Barnes now.
 
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