Some Remington updates...

It makes me wonder, did Remington keep the tooling to make M1903A3s?

Much ado about the 870s and 1100/1187s

Was there zero exposure to the FANTASTIC VersaMax, and V3 series?

If they made a V3 in 20ga like ppl ASKED FOR I think it would sell...

redneck2 said:

While some may disparage the 870 and 700, those are two products by which others are judged. I suspect the 870 is the all time best selling pump shotgun

The 700 is probably in the top two or three bolt actions of all time.

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Sure, when they were making them right. If they pick back up with the stuff they put out towards the end, I’ll pass.

I agree with wanting to see the Model 7 and 1100’s came back in their best quality.

To be honest, I was sadder to see Marlin go than Remington...based on where they’d ended up.

Old Dog said:

No disrespect toward any members intended... but when we (as a community) constantly use the term "Fudd," it serves only to illustrate how we've divided ourselves. We're doing the work for the other side. Seriously. As a very wise man once said, "We must all hang together, or most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."
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OT: And a much wiser man said “A house divided by itself cannot stand”

But we do need to address the harm these folks are causing...many of them writing articles and editorials that are immediately gobbled up by the media and antis.

Back on topic...totally agree with your second paragraph. I don’t see it being a great future if the focus is pump shotguns and bolt action rifles, even if they did bring back the quality.

And remember one thing... when the 700 was king of the hill, there weren’t nearly as many good bolt guns around to compete with it.

I want to see the return of the Model 7. And add a side bolt release to the 700 and 7 actions.

ETA: Sorry to contribute to thread drift; should be focused on what's happening rather than my wish list.

Old Dog said:

No disrespect toward any members intended... but when we (as a community) constantly use the term "Fudd," it serves only to illustrate how we've divided ourselves. We're doing the work for the other side. Seriously. As a very wise man once said, "We must all hang together, or most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

Back on topic, to say the 700 is a bolt action by which all others are judged... well, that ship sailed with Remington's history of poor Q/C, customer service and botched recalls over a period of years. As far as the 870, I've been issued one for years. I prefer the 590A1.

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I used the term FUDD to refer to RemArms and their product choices and leadership decisions and IMHO it is a fitting term. There is nothing wrong with hunting guns (I grew up hunting with and 870 and the most accurate gun I currently own is a 2019 Remington 700) but in the context of what has happened to the Remington Outdoor Company (Remington and its family of brands) we have been done wrong as a community. Maybe my tin-foil hat is on a bit tight today but I believe Ken D'Arcy was brought in as CEO by the new owning banks (that took ownership from Cerberus after the first bankruptcy) to destroy Bushmaster and DPMS (black-guns are evil, Newtown, etc) and then to get the banks out of the gun business with as little additional financial damage as possible. In that respect D'Arcy did well and screwed a lot of employees and former Remington vendors in the process. Yet, with a little help from Roundhill LLC and his buddy Richmond Italia that is allowed to buy Remington for a song, D'Arcy gets to remain at the helm of the new RemArms and gets to run a FUDD gun company, likely into the ground again. I don't see RemArms leadership as a friend to the 2A community. With "Friends" like D'Arcy and Italia we don't need many more enemies. I wanted to see Remington succeed, far more than many, but I would rather see Remington go away then be turned into what D'Arcy and Italia will likely do with their part of the former Remington.

Slater said:

Bushmaster is apparently on the way back. What their product line will include is anybody's guess, though.

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The name is coming back, none of the people and all the previous merchandise was thrown away or sold for pennies on the dollar in late-2019 early-2020 when Remington shut them down. The Bushmaster name is now owned buy Franklin Armory. The new Bushmaster might turn out better than the old Bushmaster but other than the name their is nothing left of the old company to be part of the new. What little is left of the original Bushmaster (along with some DPMS and some Remington stuff) is being sold off at severely inflated prices by a group in Kentucky (mostly ACR parts but other mixed in too): https://bushmaster-parts.com/

P5 Guy said:

It makes me wonder, did Remington keep the tooling to make M1903A3s?

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Now, see, using this as a platform for a high end line of rifles would have promise. High quality bluing, nice wood with top notch machine work and fitting. Offer a classic with sights, make some factory sporterized models, maybe have turnbull do some work on an exclusive run... Maybe re-introduce the M 1875. There are markets outside AR's and high cap 9mm's, but fighting for a slice of the mid-priced hunting gun market is a tough way to make a buck.

Pudge said:

Now, see, using this as a platform for a high end line of rifles would have promise. High quality bluing, nice wood with top notch machine work and fitting. Offer a classic with sights, make some factory sporterized models, maybe have turnbull do some work on an exclusive run... Maybe re-introduce the M 1875. There are markets outside AR's and high cap 9mm's, but fighting for a slice of the mid-priced hunting gun market is a tough way to make a buck.

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I'd totally buy a new-build M1903 (assuming it was of decent quality and a sane price, of course).

Auto Ordnance seems to do OK making Thompsons, M-1 Carbines, and of course 1911's.

They could also make 22 rifles. All types.

I hope that they will continue manufacturing in the US, even if it is not in the NE. Too many are making guns in Turkey and the Philippines.

My favorite Remington products are the 572 pump 22, 7600 rifles, and 597 rimfires. May not even be popular enough for Remington to continue with any of them.

I agree though that it is smart to start with the ponies.

mcb said:

The name is coming back, none of the people and all the previous merchandise was thrown away or sold for pennies on the dollar in late-2019 early-2020 when Remington shut them down. The Bushmaster name is now owned buy Franklin Armory. The new Bushmaster might turn out better than the old Bushmaster but other than the name their is nothing left of the old company to be part of the new. What little is left of the original Bushmaster (along with some DPMS and some Remington stuff) is being sold off at severely inflated prices by a group in Kentucky (mostly ACR parts but other mixed in too): https://bushmaster-parts.com/

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The reality is the that Bushmaster, or at least the people who made up Bushmaster, became Windham Weaponry back in 2011.

mcb said:

Looks like their going FUDD, which is, admittedly, their strong suit, but it is also a hard row to hoe in this current firearms market. Can you keep a gun company afloat on mid tier shotguns and bolt action rifles? Time will tell, but as long as D'Arcy et al is at the helm I am not interested.

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Well, there are companies making money off of “Fudd” guns. Weatherby, Savage, Henry, Ruger, etc. Henry is annually making >200K rifles annually; Remington in 2019 made >250K rifles, Ruger made >500K rifles. The “innovative” and “modern” companies like BCM <10K rifles; Daniel Defense >25K rifles. I realize that PSA and Anderson are selling lower teir “modern” rifles and receivers in the hundreds of thousands, but it’s clear by the numbers that “Fudd” guns are still selling at a healthy pace and that the notion that steel and wood guns are part of a all but shriveled up market doesn’t seem to be true when you examine manufactured volumes. Actually knowing and raising kids of the Gen Z generation you’d be surprised to really see what it is they like. They are actually quite interested in wood and steel and things that are stylistically more elegant. Also many of the Generation X who are still strong gun buyers have interest in things beyond AR15s and polymer. It’s really the millennial generation who has trouble respecting styles and culture from the past.

Old Dog said:

Almost missed this one. Funniest joke I've read on the internet in weeks.

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You are conflating "Young" with "New".

Yes new shooters can be not very discerning. I was there at one point. Ask me about how I put large objective scopes on everything.

Once they get some experience, that quickly changes

ColoradoMinuteMan said:

Well, there are companies making money off of “Fudd” guns. Weatherby, Savage, Henry, Ruger, etc. Henry is annually making >200K rifles annually; Remington in 2019 made >250K rifles, Ruger made >500K rifles. The “innovative” and “modern” companies like BCM <10K rifles Daniel Defense >25K rifles. I realize that PSA and Anderson are selling lower tear “modern” rifles and receivers in the hundreds of thousands, but it’s clear by the numbers that “Fudd” guns are still selling at a healthy pace and that the notion that steel and wood guns are part of a all but shriveled up market doesn’t seem to be true when you examine manufactured volumes. Actually knowing and raising kids of the Gen Z generation you’d be surprised to really see what it is they like. They are actually quite interested in wood and steel and things that are stylistically more elegant. Also many of the Generation X who are still strong gun buyers have interest in things beyond AR15s and polymer. It’s really the millennial generation who has trouble respecting styles and culture from the past.

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You do realize a large portion of Remington's rifle sales in 2019 where ARs under the Bushmaster, DPMS, and RemDef brands.

My objection is not to traditional guns but to the decision the current RemArm leadership made and how they destroyed allot of brands and livelihoods so that they could destroy two "black-gun" firearms brands and get the banks out of the gun business and in the process they fangled it so they could buy themselves a FUDD gun company for penny's on the dollar, as I state more fully in my early post that begin with "I used the term FUDD"

I have hunted and shot with Remington products since I was very little and they still comprise a large portion (~25%) of my collection but no more new Remingtons will enter my collection while the current leadership is in place.

I can’t speak to internal politics, nor do I care to. Especially because they tend to be one sided and rarely data driven. My observations are purely related to your comments on if Fudd guns are a viable business. From the data points I see it’s clear that there is a business to be had. Remington shotguns alone outpaced a combined handful of modern, viable, tactically oriented manufactures.

mcb said:

You do realize a large portion of Remington's rifle sales in 2019 where ARs under the Bushmaster, DPMS, and RemDef brands.

My objection is not to traditional guns but to the decision the current RemArm leadership made and how they destroyed allot of brands and livelihoods so that they could destroy two "black-gun" firearms brands and get the banks out of the gun business and in the process they fangled it so they could buy themselves a FUDD gun company for penny's on the dollar, as I state more fully in my early post that begin with "I used the term FUDD"

I have hunted and shot with Remington products since I was very little and they still comprise a large portion (~25%) of my collection but no more new Remingtons will enter my collection while the current leadership is in place.

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Crosshair said:

You are conflating "Young" with "New".

Yes new shooters can be not very discerning. I was there at one point. Ask me about how I put large objective scopes on everything.

Once they get some experience, that quickly changes

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Uh, no, I wasn't "conflating" anything. The quoted text read, "young buyers are INCREDIBLY discerning..."

And I still find the continued insistence of some to use the term "Fudd guns" in relation to traditional hunting/sporting firearms as not contributing to meaningful discourse on the topic. The term, as it originated and typically continues to be used, connotes a derogatory meaning to an entire class of gun-owners.

Old Dog said:

Uh, no, I wasn't "conflating" anything. The quoted text read, young buyers are INCREDIBLY discerning..."

And I still find the continued insistence of some to use the term "Fudd guns" in relation to traditional hunting/sporting firearms as not contributing to meaningful discourse on the topic. The term, as it originated and typically continues to be used, connotes a derogatory meaning to an entire class of gun-owners.

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Not all tradition gun owner are FUDDs (I own more traditional than tactical personally) but some of them very much are. Yes it is a derogatory term and it's for gun owners that own traditional hunting/sporting firearms but look down on firearm owners that own and use modern or tactical firearms. The extreme wing of the FUDDs going to the point of supporting assault weapon bans, magazine size limits, etc. I personally believe the current leadership of Remington given their actions is very much a FUDD in the context of the definition I have stipulated. They shutdown and destroyed Bushmaster and DPMS a year before a presidential election where a Democrat was favored. Making ARs in such a year is like printing money and yet they chose to shut down those two brands. From my point of view its hard not to view the current leadership at RemArms as anything but a FUDD with all its negative connotations.

From my point of view, it is hard to view all firearms manufacturers and gun-owners through the prism of absolutism.

Every group has varying degrees of commitment to its causes.

This is just the reality. Why do we expect gun companies and gun owners to all be fiery defenders of what WE think they should believe and support?

Old Dog said:

No disrespect toward any members intended... but when we (as a community) constantly use the term "Fudd," it serves only to illustrate how we've divided ourselves.

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Well, to a certain extent, the original "fudds" self-segregated. As long as they got to keep their cherished arms, the rest of us could go hang.
As with all language, that meaning has morphed and twisted and has, confusingly become a descriptive as well as a pejorative. There's probably no cure for that now. "We" need to be collective all the more now, and some of "us" have no interest in that--either direction.

Back to topic, Remmington needs to repair their image in handguns, which is a huge market for anyone selling arms right now. The PCC idea above would be an excellent starting point. The XP line could be brought back, especially with T/C out of the market.

Yes, a PCC would be a really good step in the right direction. It’s a big area of interest in today’s market. I also think there is a market for Remington to build a nextgen “Woodmaster” for intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, 5.56x45, 6 ARC, .300 BLK, that has a modern options like STANANG magazines, threaded barrels, MLOK and etc. I believe there are many who still enjoy traditional rifle ergonomics, but want more modern or “tactical” options. They could build a short action version as well. If they were really smart they would design it to use the same furniture and FCG as the PCC so they could have a really awesome aftermarket economies of scale.

CapnMac said:

Well, to a certain extent, the original "fudds" self-segregated. As long as they got to keep their cherished arms, the rest of us could go hang.
As with all language, that meaning has morphed and twisted and has, confusingly become a descriptive as well as a pejorative. There's probably no cure for that now. "We" need to be collective all the more now, and some of "us" have no interest in that--either direction.

Back to topic, Remmington needs to repair their image in handguns, which is a huge market for anyone selling arms right now. The PCC idea above would be an excellent starting point. The XP line could be brought back, especially with T/C out of the market.

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Old Dog said:

Uh, no, I wasn't "conflating" anything. The quoted text read, "young buyers are INCREDIBLY discerning..."

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Okay, then why were you laughing then at it?