Why we worse with hot loads ?

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pairof44sp

pairof44sp

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If you find that every bump up a notch in power makes your revolver groups a little worse, what are the main culprits and workthrus?

Obvious things are:

hotter loads leave hands trembling and beat up

hotter loads make you jumpier

hotter loads make you “wrestle” the gun - holding down the muzzle under recoil uses up your “accuracy points” on stopping the bucking bronco ride

today at the range, I was shooting mellow 3.5g TG .38s out of a 642 DA

equally as accurately as

5.8g TG 357s out of a 6” GP 100

because every addl lb of recoil loosens up my “groups” by a bit.

What’s the cure?
 
I really don’t know if there is a cure. I think it depends on each individual.
For me I find that I get my best accuracy from mild loads that are loaded close to the minimum and hotter loads that are loaded to just under maximum recommended loads.
In between those two “sweet spots” as I like to call them the accuracy is poor.
It seems to me that when I load to max or beyond into +P territory my accuracy goes to pot, so I load to the sweet spots that I have found and stay with them.

Perhaps the cure is not loading so much for power, but for accuracy with moderate power?
 
I can't really do it - but you have to block everyting out and keep the sights and the target as the most important thing in your mind. I don't really play the hot load game, if I want more nrg - I use a bigger firearm that is heavier and shoots the next class cartrdige if that's how one would call it.
 
Of course we all know that each gun is an individual and will shoot certain loads better than others.
I have always just went with what the gun tells me it likes. I'm not one to hotrod my loads though anyway. I figure it is a bit of both mechanical and physical issues between us and our guns that cause accuracy to drop with hotter loads.
 
pairof44sp said:
hotter loads make you “wrestle” the gun
Click to expand...
"Wrestling" with your revolver is a sure sign you are introducing tension into the shooting process.Tension reduces accuracy and speed.
Hands trembling? A way to tense grip which leads to tense wrists arms and shoulders. Which lead to a tense back and hips. That leads all the way to your feet being tense. Zero ability to handle recoil when you are that tense.
Jumpy? Same explanation as above.

A firm grip should be combined with relaxed elbows and shoulders and a solid stance. Everything behind your hands are the shock absorbers. You probably do that without thinking with lighter loads.
 
pairof44sp said:
If you find that every bump up a notch in power makes your revolver groups a little worse, what are the main culprits and workthrus?

Obvious things are:

hotter loads leave hands trembling and beat up

hotter loads make you jumpier

hotter loads make you “wrestle” the gun - holding down the muzzle under recoil uses up your “accuracy points” on stopping the bucking bronco ride

today at the range, I was shooting mellow 3.5g TG .38s out of a 642 DA

equally as accurately as

5.8g TG 357s out of a 6” GP 100

because every addl lb of recoil loosens up my “groups” by a bit.

What’s the cure?
Click to expand...

Also:

- Hotter loads loosen revolver
- Hotter loads eat forcing cone
- Hotter loads cut top strap deep
- Hotter loads make bigger muzzle blast

Hot 357 Magnum is what I like to when shooting metal plates on a distance. However, same effect I have when shooting 41 Magnum using 200-220 grain bullet at about 1100 fps, without consequences listed above.
 
Each load normally has a sweet spot with powder bullet weight combination

pressure curve plays an important role in accuracy
I have a 38 special load with Titegroup and a 147 grain pc bullet. It shoots more accurately in my S&W 15 with a 2” barrel than my 6” Python. Go figure. The Python with a mild 148 full wadcutter and Winchester 231 is like a laser but not as good in the Smith and Wesson 15
You dont want much muzzle blast the pressure following the bullet can also cause a slight yaw.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
The "cure" is more range time.

You don't get good at swinging a hammer without swinging a hammer.
Click to expand...
I agree 110%, this is the answer.

No matter what you choose, if you're going to rely on it, then you need to practice with it with what you intend to carry in it, or something equivalent.

As far as wear on the gun, if you're shooting spec ammo, that the gun is rated for, the gun should have no trouble at all, or you're using the wrong gun. ;)
 
pairof44sp said:
If you find that every bump up a notch in power makes your revolver groups a little worse, what are the main culprits and workthrus?
Click to expand...

As long as you are meeting your established group size demand signal I think you're fine.

If your group size demand signal is Minute of Attacker that would be different from Bullseye Competitor.

:)

-Stan
 
The generally accepted, easy answer .....reduce the loads! But, that’s not always desirable or practical.

Soooooo, perhaps a shooting glove to help mitigate felt recoil, or a heavier handgun in your desired cartridge, experiment with different grips (the grips that S&W use on their 460’s/500’s are pretty incredible), and last (least desirable for me) on my list would be some form of muzzle brake!

400 grainers @ around 1500 fps from my 460 XVR are actually quite tolerable. The muzzle blast however, is not!

I’d much rather shoot my XVR 460 with maxed-out 400’s than my 629 44 Mag with maxed-out 265’s! memtb
 
Last edited:
pairof44sp said:
If you find that every bump up a notch in power makes your revolver groups a little worse, what are the main culprits and workthrus?

Obvious things are:

hotter loads leave hands trembling and beat up

hotter loads make you jumpier

hotter loads make you “wrestle” the gun - holding down the muzzle under recoil uses up your “accuracy points” on stopping the bucking bronco ride

today at the range, I was shooting mellow 3.5g TG .38s out of a 642 DA

equally as accurately as

5.8g TG 357s out of a 6” GP 100

because every addl lb of recoil loosens up my “groups” by a bit.

What’s the cure?
Click to expand...
I think this is a case of looking for a solution in search of a problem. The best load is the one that A) gets the job done, B) doesn't blow anything up that don't need blowed up, C) works for the intended user.

If by "hot" you mean over-pressure, bad idea. Just don't. Problem solved.
If by "hot" you mean at the top-end of the pressure curve, practice with that load until you're good with it. Good enough to get the job done. Problem solved.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by "hot."
 
kidneyboy said:
"Wrestling" with your revolver is a sure sign you are introducing tension into the shooting process.Tension reduces accuracy and speed.
Hands trembling? A way to tense grip which leads to tense wrists arms and shoulders. Which lead to a tense back and hips. That leads all the way to your feet being tense. Zero ability to handle recoil when you are that tense.
Jumpy? Same explanation as above.

A firm grip should be combined with relaxed elbows and shoulders and a solid stance. Everything behind your hands are the shock absorbers. You probably do that without thinking with lighter loads.
Click to expand...
I prescribe better grips and decaf. :D
 
trackskippy said:
As far as wear on the gun, if you're shooting spec ammo, that the gun is rated for, the gun should have no trouble at all, or you're using the wrong gun. ;)
Click to expand...

Just go easy with the 125 grain JHP magnums. I put quite a few factory loaded 125 JHPs through my GP100 over the years, well before I heard it was a bad thing to do in any .357 revolver.

Sadly, the forcing cone on my GP100 has plenty of wear. No, that's not leading.

View attachment 997007
 
That looks like its got a few more miles left on it. :)

Guns, like anything else mechanical, do wear out with use, even if you're following the recommended maintenance, ammo, etc.

Wearing a gun out in practice is a good, positive thing. Most don't ever come close. ;)
 
In my experience - which is extensive but not absolute - a man who can shoot a moderately loaded centerfire as well as he can a .22 is rare. I can do it for a little while, when I've had a few months of regular training, but not all day. Eventually even the recoil of something like a .45 auto will get to me.

With the big guns - .44 Magnum on up - I believe a man who can handle them as well as the .22s is so rare as to be nearly non-existent. I've heard of them from credible sources but have never personally seen one in action. (There are folks who have claimed to be able to do it, and probably believed they were telling me the truth, but couldn't prove it at the range. That's happened often enough that I no longer believe anyone on the subject.)*

I doubt there is a real "cure". Improvement can be had by spending more time with the .22, but ultimately I believe that how a fellow is wired has a lot to do with it. Some folks are able to ignore recoil better than others, and physical size, "manliness", etc. doesn't seem to have much to do with it. The only thing I'm reasonably sure of is that more practice with heavy recoiling guns is not the answer, usually just producing more flinch.

The short version is that in my opinion all handgunners are best served by frequent, conscientious practice with the .22, regular - but not high volume - practice with their carry guns, and only a cylinder or two per day out of the really heavy hitters.

*On re-reading it occurs to me that I've seen several fellows who were equally bad with everything they shot. I'm not sure that counts!
 
consistent follow-through. your shot process has to be the same with every gun you shoot. the hard-kicking guns will just push you back more. my hardest kicking handgun makes me take a step back with each shot because i hold all my handguns the same. 1018171243a.jpg

luck,

murf
 
.38 Special said:
In my experience - which is extensive but not absolute - a man who can shoot a moderately loaded centerfire as well as he can a .22 is rare. I can do it for a little while, when I've had a few months of regular training, but not all day. Eventually even the recoil of something like a .45 auto will get to me.

With the big guns - .44 Magnum on up - I believe a man who can handle them as well as the .22s is so rare as to be nearly non-existent. I've heard of them from credible sources but have never personally seen one in action. (There are folks who have claimed to be able to do it, and probably believed they were telling me the truth, but couldn't prove it at the range. That's happened often enough that I no longer believe anyone on the subject.)*

I doubt there is a real "cure". Improvement can be had by spending more time with the .22, but ultimately I believe that how a fellow is wired has a lot to do with it. Some folks are able to ignore recoil better than others, and physical size, "manliness", etc. doesn't seem to have much to do with it. The only thing I'm reasonably sure of is that more practice with heavy recoiling guns is not the answer, usually just producing more flinch.

The short version is that in my opinion all handgunners are best served by frequent, conscientious practice with the .22, regular - but not high volume - practice with their carry guns, and only a cylinder or two per day out of the really heavy hitters.

*On re-reading it occurs to me that I've seen several fellows who were equally bad with everything they shot. I'm not sure that counts!
Click to expand...
I agree mostly but, in my experience it also depends on the .22. A lot! I have a High Standard Jam-O-Matic (Duramatic;) ) that I can shoot all day (literally, it's a full day of fun) with standard velocity loads from a good maker (it prefers Fiocchi) without any fatigue. Same for my Colt's Woodsman. They're light and comfortable pistols. However, I also have a bull-barrel Ruger Mk. IV "Target" that's heavy enough to start causing shoulder joint fatigue after an hour or so of steady shooting. The same goes for my 5-1/2" 3-screw Single Six. After an hour of shoot, unload, reload, repeat, my shoulder starts to remind just how old I am and how many hard miles I been rode on. ;) If I take a longish break, the shoulder fatigue fades pretty quickly - but comes back pretty quickly, too.

It isn't just recoil that gets to your aiming arm, it's leverage. Any heavy weight extended along the axis of your arm is going to cause fatigue. Only reason I mention it is so as not to imply just because somebody can't meet one person's standards of perfection don't mean they're doing something wrong. Personally, I can enjoy a .44 Super Blackhawk for about 5 cylinders full - about 30 rounds - before it's time for a long break. The first and fifth targets will generally be crap on a shingle; but the second through fourth will be solid "meh." ;)
 
murf said:
i hold all my handguns the same.
Click to expand...
This! What I find with a lot of newbies to big guns (not implying the OP is a newbie with big guns) is they tend to take a death grip on anything they think might hit hard. Instead of just letting the recoil rock in the palm and keeping the elbow loose to absorb recoil, they go all stiff and tense. Like what's been said already, tense is bad. Loosen up. Keep a good, firm HOLD on the grips, don't grab them like you're hanging from a cliff for dear life. If you can't shoot full magnums good fast, then try slowing down or step down to less than full magnums. But "...hold all [your] handguns the same," is great advice. Best of the thread, IMO.
 
I have no proof of it but I believe the bullet leaves the barrel during the recoil, not after it of course , so if you are
you are max & then alone will result in the same recoil every time, however during the grip & recoil of
a max speed bullet, even the very slightest difference in grip will result in different impact, not huge but
enough to make the load look bad.
Try it off a good rest & see if that group tightens up, that is what I do.
I used to be very good with revolvers, mostly because reloading let me find the load I could control
consistently. Now to try out a load I rest it then try it standing, to see if I can match it, sometimes I
find the same size group in both positions but in slightly different places on the paper, go figure.
 
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