All cars are supposed to have a VIN. Why shouldn't all guns have a serial number? It helps to recover stolen property. It helps to close down chop shops. Serial numbers were required by the 68 gun control act. That ship sailed many moons ago. What we are beginning to see more of are criminal enterprises assisted by 80% frames or kits that are fabricated for sale. Numbers were insignificant for many years but production is expedited and made less costly by the kits. Serial numbers are essential for accountability, and without accountability we will all be at higher risk.
ATF proposed 80% rule and receiver definition is up...
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silicosys4
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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-1
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Destructive Device” means:
- A missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than 1/4 oz.
- Any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may readily be converted to expel a projectile, by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore greater than one-half inch in diameter.
- A combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a device into a destructive device and from which a destructive device can be readily assembled.
A shotgun or shotgun shell which is determined by the Attorney General to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.
Trey Veston
Member
So because a couple of gang members are using them to commit illegal acts, the government should take them from me and other lawful gun owners??
The logic on display here by gun owners is extremely troubling.
lysanderxiii
Member
The letter of the law is the law, enforcement agencies do not have the right to "interpret" the laws as they see fit. The reason speed limits are set is for safety reasons, you would be real upset if you were driving 44 mph in a 45 mph zone on a rainy day and a cop gave you a ticket for speeding, because in his estimation a slower speed would be safer.
And, who says it has to be better?
As long as it works as intended:
(You won't find this one in Colt's catalog.)
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WrongHanded
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I didn't say they should. But if you were to consider that the purpose of the law is to prevent criminals from getting access to guns by simply buying them, that would be the logical conclusion. Wouldn't it?
Trey Veston
Member
If you were truly being logical, then you would realize that making something illegal is not going to prevent criminals from acquiring it. We don't have a gun problem in the US; we have a problem with people committing evil acts that are already against the law. Making more laws that only punish decent people like me and other gun owners is completely illogical.
WrongHanded
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Those all look like great guns. I wonder why anyone buys 80% kits when they could build fine firearms like those. (Sarcasm of course)
Yep, the letter of the law is the law. Except that it's not. That why we have a Supreme Court. Because your interpretation isn't the same as the next guy. And of course laws can be changed, and new ones written.
As far as enforcement agencies not having the right to "interpret" laws. Well, apparently the can do anyway. So what now?
P80 takes a hand drill, exacto knife (add a sharp chizel to save time), some sand paper.....and if your lucky and quick 15 mins to a functional handgun.
personally im fine with buying thru an ffl, id have to register the completed gun anyway....but thats me.
WrongHanded
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Oh, I completely agree. We've got a revolving door criminal justice system. I'd prefer a 'three strikes and you're dead' system. But that's not likely.
However, suggesting that making something illegal doesn't stop criminals getting it, is only partly true. A convicted felon typically cannot buy gun from a gun store because they'd fail the background check. So they don't. That law works. If the same was true of 80% kits, they'd have to find another way to buy those.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Is that what I'm "basically saying"? No. I thought I was very explicit. If not, I'll try harder. If it is proven that convicted felons are buying 80% receivers from Midway or Brownells and turning them into complete firearms to be sold on the black market and ultimately used in crime then I have a problem with that and you should too. No one should have a problem with laws that actually do keep criminals from obtaining firearms through legal means. Eliminating the 80% receiver so that all receivers are produced with a serial number and processed through an FFL should be a non-issue for any law abiding citizen.
Let's cut the crap. People like them because they can buy a nearly finished receiver and assemble it into a functional firearm without having to fill out a 4473. They're upset because they think they won't be able to fly under the radar but who are they fooling? I take a relatively dim view of this, about like people being paid under the table so they don't have to pay taxes.
No, this is the problem with many shooters who find themselves in arguments over these issue. They react with emotion, rather than logic. Who said anything about taking your guns?
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You'll have to `splain that one, Lucy.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Come on man! The “technicality” was simply it fit within the parameters law, that’s it. the reason for it to be made wasn’t to circumvent anything, it was to make money selling an item that would allow people to shoot faster, some people enjoyed it, simply for fun. And last I checked shooting fast wasn’t illegal.
What about a 14” barrel with a 2” fixed flash suppressor, is it simply staying within the parameters of the law, or is a way to circumvent?
what about Sig braces?
What about nearly every semi auto rifle sold in CA in the last 20 years, for that matter every Gun marked “CA compliant”
If they ban 30 round mags will carrying 29+1 be a way to circumvent that law?
I say the law matters and if someone makes something that is legally compliant and “they” don’t like it, well then they can pass another law to fix what they perceive as the problem.
WrongHanded
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Fair point. Legislation was written to restrict gun ownership in various ways. The manufacturers found ways to work within the letter of the law, but work around the spirit of the law. So yes, new laws, or alternatively no new laws. Only problem with that is that half of the Senate doesn't want any new laws. So I guess criminals will continue to use items invented to work around the spirit of the law to commit crimes. Which is fine, so long as no one I care about dies as a result.
1KPerDay
Member
and if the AFT can determine that bumpstocks are machine guns despite not meeting the legislative definition of machine gun, its hard to imagine they can't say a shot gun is DD when the legislative law does call it that.
My point being, most people that stood on the sidewalk and threw bumpstock/braces/80%'s and are itching to throw pin-weld/rifle based pistols, solvent traps/37mm flairs...so on under the bus tend to be the type that love their shotguns. I know very few shooter who don't own a shotgun over 410, and exclusively shoot pistols one-handed. Those willing to screw the groups mentioned above on the grounds of "spirit of the law" should at least be willing to throw out their shotguns and target pistols.
luzyfuerza
Member
These regulations go far beyond the question of "80% lowers" or "ghost guns".
So far, nobody here has discussed these consequences of the proposed regulations:
1) All upper receivers and bolt carrier groups used in AR-15s become subject to control as frames/receivers, and therefore can only be purchased through FFLs. That means no more purchasing "complete uppers" without filling out a 4473. It also means filling out a 4473 for every spare BCG you buy. And for every spare upper receiver you purchase for that future "build".
Every AR sold through a dealer would have at least three serial numbers. Those two extra serial numbers are sure to take a bite out of crime.
2) All firearm "parts kits", like those sold by Palmetto State and many others, that can be readily assembled by end users into functional firearms with the addition of only a serialized lower receiver would only be available for purchase through FFLs after completing a 4473. These 4473s would be IN ADDITION to those currently required for the lower receiver.
Undescribed: when do the parts you buy from a variety of manufacturers become a "parts kit" that can only be bought through an FFL?
3) All revolver cylinders will be subject to control as frames/receivers, and therefore can only be purchased through FFLs. No more converting the caliber of your favorite revolver without filling out a 4473, if it involves installation of a new cylinder.
Of course, buying a new cylinder is a major source of "crime guns", right?
4) The slides of virtually every semi-automatic handgun currently made would also be subject to control as a frame/receiver. A new Glock 17 slide would have to be serialized. If you want to buy a second slide for your favorite Glock and set it up for a red-dot mount, then this second slide would also require a serial number, manufacturer marking and could only be purchased through an FFL after filling out a 4473.
Spare slides, coming to a crime scene near you!
5) Suppressors often use components that adapt that suppressor to various firearms. One mounting device might adapt a particular suppressor for use on a Browning-style handgun, and a different mounting device for, say, mounting on a PCC with a fixed barrel. Under these proposed regulations, both mounting devices must be serialized, marked with manufacturer information, and could only be purchased through a dealer, after filling out a 4473.
One unanswered question: would each of these mounts require a separate tax stamp?
6) All federally licensed dealers/gunsmiths/pawn shops/etc. would be authorized to refuse to accept any AR upper receiver/AR BCG/revolver cylinder/autopistol slide until these components are marked with serial number, manufacturer information, etc. So, what are currently considered to be "parts", or "pieces of metal", but definitely not "firearms", would have to be serialized and marked as firearms when they are pawned, consigned for sale by an FFL, or go to the gunsmith.
How will any of these proposed changes, especially the additional background checks associated with every additional 4473, reduce crime?
So far, nobody here has discussed these consequences of the proposed regulations:
1) All upper receivers and bolt carrier groups used in AR-15s become subject to control as frames/receivers, and therefore can only be purchased through FFLs. That means no more purchasing "complete uppers" without filling out a 4473. It also means filling out a 4473 for every spare BCG you buy. And for every spare upper receiver you purchase for that future "build".
Every AR sold through a dealer would have at least three serial numbers. Those two extra serial numbers are sure to take a bite out of crime.
2) All firearm "parts kits", like those sold by Palmetto State and many others, that can be readily assembled by end users into functional firearms with the addition of only a serialized lower receiver would only be available for purchase through FFLs after completing a 4473. These 4473s would be IN ADDITION to those currently required for the lower receiver.
Undescribed: when do the parts you buy from a variety of manufacturers become a "parts kit" that can only be bought through an FFL?
3) All revolver cylinders will be subject to control as frames/receivers, and therefore can only be purchased through FFLs. No more converting the caliber of your favorite revolver without filling out a 4473, if it involves installation of a new cylinder.
Of course, buying a new cylinder is a major source of "crime guns", right?
4) The slides of virtually every semi-automatic handgun currently made would also be subject to control as a frame/receiver. A new Glock 17 slide would have to be serialized. If you want to buy a second slide for your favorite Glock and set it up for a red-dot mount, then this second slide would also require a serial number, manufacturer marking and could only be purchased through an FFL after filling out a 4473.
Spare slides, coming to a crime scene near you!
5) Suppressors often use components that adapt that suppressor to various firearms. One mounting device might adapt a particular suppressor for use on a Browning-style handgun, and a different mounting device for, say, mounting on a PCC with a fixed barrel. Under these proposed regulations, both mounting devices must be serialized, marked with manufacturer information, and could only be purchased through a dealer, after filling out a 4473.
One unanswered question: would each of these mounts require a separate tax stamp?
6) All federally licensed dealers/gunsmiths/pawn shops/etc. would be authorized to refuse to accept any AR upper receiver/AR BCG/revolver cylinder/autopistol slide until these components are marked with serial number, manufacturer information, etc. So, what are currently considered to be "parts", or "pieces of metal", but definitely not "firearms", would have to be serialized and marked as firearms when they are pawned, consigned for sale by an FFL, or go to the gunsmith.
How will any of these proposed changes, especially the additional background checks associated with every additional 4473, reduce crime?
bibox
Member
bibox
Member
They won't curtail crime at all, no law ever has.
bibox
Member
Am curious how much longer before the narrative shifts to "Why would anyone need more than 25 rounds per caliber stored at home?", "If you want to shoot you should do so at a properly licensed club.", or "Of course you need liability insurance to own a gun, you have that for your car don't you?".
P5 Guy
Member
Really?
Bloods and Crips have members building firearms when stealing them is cheaper?
Bloods and Crips have members building firearms when stealing them is cheaper?
Wow. I see plenty of statements that include “personally”, and “as far as I’M concerned”, and “if it reduces crime just a little bit”, and “if it doesn’t affect ME”. How very disturbing and selfish. How much freedom are people willing to give up, and how much trampling on the rights of others is ok? For some people, apparently a LOT.
So what if a weapon has no serial number. I couldn’t care less about a car VIN analogy. So what? Should we go back and stick serial numbers on every gun made prior to ‘68 as well? Really? There was a time not too long ago that actual people were branded with serial numbers as well. For the same reasons, to help “law enforcement”. That is not a “justification”, it’s an excuse.
I know! In order to reduce crime even more, let’s just cut to the chase and ban all guns, cars, knives, bats, bricks, martial arts training, etc. We can also end “envy” and things that promote Envy based crimes by having everyone wear plain grey jumpsuits. We can also mandate that everyone live in the same type housing, etc. There! All tools used in crime, and 50 percent of the reason people commit crimes are gone. Just need to perfect that last 50 percent.
Again, sitting here and justifying this stuff is choosing the trimming for the gilded cage they’ve made for us. We should be pushing to REPEAL the NFA and the ‘68 GCA, not holding them up as two pieces of vaunted legislation to be honored.
So what if a weapon has no serial number. I couldn’t care less about a car VIN analogy. So what? Should we go back and stick serial numbers on every gun made prior to ‘68 as well? Really? There was a time not too long ago that actual people were branded with serial numbers as well. For the same reasons, to help “law enforcement”. That is not a “justification”, it’s an excuse.
I know! In order to reduce crime even more, let’s just cut to the chase and ban all guns, cars, knives, bats, bricks, martial arts training, etc. We can also end “envy” and things that promote Envy based crimes by having everyone wear plain grey jumpsuits. We can also mandate that everyone live in the same type housing, etc. There! All tools used in crime, and 50 percent of the reason people commit crimes are gone. Just need to perfect that last 50 percent.
Again, sitting here and justifying this stuff is choosing the trimming for the gilded cage they’ve made for us. We should be pushing to REPEAL the NFA and the ‘68 GCA, not holding them up as two pieces of vaunted legislation to be honored.
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BUT THEY ARE RELYING on, ppl will NOT comment during the comment time frame . INSTEAD, come here and other boards and just dump VALUABLE AND IRRETRIEVABLE energy into a keyboard, which, UNLESS giving ideas for the actual comment, tips on using the comment page, and other RELAYED etc. are 90% USELESS. Save, giving the government MORE reliance on same (e.g. ''but they are relying on'').
When I read this I thought ''well, that ends the bump debate for THIS thread LoL. I was wrong
U are correct, no law has EVER deterred crime, the STATED PUNISHMENT has. If it's 20 years at the brick pits, it will deter, if its 20 minutes at the tickle room, it will not
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Oh BTW IMHO...
Post #67 for the win! Thnx for clear ideas, suggestions, and NOT saying I ''have no need'' to buy a kit for regular reasons, as a hobby, collecting, investment, etc. Or the absolute worst and most egregious,some here are FLAT OUT AGREEING with the opposition.
Post #67 for the win! Thnx for clear ideas, suggestions, and NOT saying I ''have no need'' to buy a kit for regular reasons, as a hobby, collecting, investment, etc. Or the absolute worst and most egregious,some here are FLAT OUT AGREEING with the opposition.
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