Why we worse with hot loads ?

ACES&8S said:

I have no proof of it but I believe the bullet leaves the barrel during the recoil, not after it of course , so if you are
you are max & then alone will result in the same recoil every time, however during the grip & recoil of
a max speed bullet, even the very slightest difference in grip will result in different impact, not huge but
enough to make the load look bad.
Try it off a good rest & see if that group tightens up, that is what I do.
I used to be very good with revolvers, mostly because reloading let me find the load I could control
consistently. Now to try out a load I rest it then try it standing, to see if I can match it, sometimes I
find the same size group in both positions but in slightly different places on the paper, go figure.

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Sure, you have proof of it.

It's called "physics".

Recoil starts at the moment the projectile starts accelerating down the barrel. "Equal and opposite reaction" and all that.

What happens after that instant in time is the follow through of the mechanical action caused by the forces at play.



How recoil is FELT, however, is a matter of several factors in combination. Grip strength, construction of the firearm, mass of the bullet/mass of the firearm, the individual's grip and form with the firearm, etc.

RetiredUSNChief said:

Sure, you have proof of it.

It's called "physics".

Recoil starts at the moment the projectile starts accelerating down the barrel. "Equal and opposite reaction" and all that.

What happens after that instant in time is the follow through of the mechanical action caused by the forces at play.



How recoil is FELT, however, is a matter of several factors in combination. Grip strength, construction of the firearm, mass of the bullet/mass of the firearm, the individual's grip and form with the firearm, etc.

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Which goes a long way into explaining “why” bullet impact from a low power/low velocity is higher than that of a high velocity bullet from the same handgun. The slow bullet remains in the barrel longer into the recoil arc than does the high velocity bullet! memtb

Why do the groups widen with heavier loads?

Lots of possibilities:
A lightweight gun is one. You’re going to feel more recoil and that can get painful.

Flinch and grip. You’ve got a death grip on the gun anticipating the recoil and you flinch when the round goes off.

The gun just doesn’t like that particular load and isn’t accurate with it.

Weak hands, wrists and forearms. Have you ever really looked at the folks who regularly shoot heavy, full power loads with heavy guns? You’ll see very strong hands, wrists and bigger forearms than most shooters.

I have a standard grip I use with N frames which works well with standard loads but when I
go to max loads I expect more recoil so I naturally grip a bit harder which changes my
expectations of recoil & usually results in wider groups. I don't shoot competition so the
only one I am competing with is myself and I tie most of the time.

Pain. Plain and simple. Recoil by its very nature is not fun. It's something we tolerate. Some just tolerate more than others. Some work hard to build that tolerance while others don't. That said, while some of that tolerance is physical, it's mostly mental. The physical aspect is more about technique than strength. Look at John Linebaugh, he's a spindly little guy but shoots his .500's one handed. The mental aspect is far more critical.

This idea that the most accurate loads are under maximum is a rifle concept that applies nowhere else.

Like @CraigC - said recoil by it's very nature is not fun - Case in point, in our rifle season I carry various rifles for the
area I am in but without fail I carry a model 29-2 S&W 8" bbl on my side.
I tested several loads when I began carrying the 29, so of course I went MAX to see the most accurate & had success,
then came practice & with that my tolerance dropped off & I went back to my standard loads where I am comfortable.
I only use the 29 out to 50 yards on a standing or strolling deer, most go down right there, only one have ever ran
out of sight but that was 80 yards of distance traveled.
The mags don't have to be mag-nificent. Just within your confidence.

my understanding is adding more pressure causes the powder to burn in inconsistent pulses from the added heat and pressure, rather than a mostly continuous wave. More pressure also stretches the brass and chamber, in ways that they're inherent, unrelieved stresses dictate. Pulses in the burn rate will cause significant variation in velocity. Distortion in brass and chambers will cause differences in leade and muzzle interaction.
I don't see an extra 50fps really having an operator level effect on accuracy.

The Freedom Arms guns seem to work just fine and drive tacks at 65,000psi. As long as you're within it's operating capability, it makes no difference.

The cure is to learn the basics of pistolcraft, remember them and always go back to reinforce them. There is no shortcut and working out on the keyboard does not help, neither does postcount.

ATTAINING A MINIMUM ARC OF MOVEMENT (bullseyepistol.com)

pairof44sp said:

What’s the cure?

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My own experience loading for my own revolvers and thinking about it revolvers, semi-automatics and rifles is I seldom need to load hot to get good accuracy. I shoot for enjoyment and that includes my S&W Model 29. When I reach a point where my loads are making it painful to shoot any gun the pleasure and enjoyment are gone. Been loading a lot of 38 Special and 357 Magnum lately with HBWC bullets (I found a pile of them I stashed a few decades ago). Running them through my S&W 27 and 28 guns I see no reason to load hot. For me loading hot, especially in 44 Mag or 45 Colt just takes the enjoyment out of things. Anyway my cure is not to load them at max. Your mileage may vary as to accuracy and velocity.

Just My Take
Ron

Reloadron said:

My own experience loading for my own revolvers and thinking about it revolvers, semi-automatics and rifles is I seldom need to load hot to get good accuracy. I shoot for enjoyment and that includes my S&W Model 29. When I reach a point where my loads are making it painful to shoot any gun the pleasure and enjoyment are gone. Been loading a lot of 38 Special and 357 Magnum lately with HBWC bullets (I found a pile of them I stashed a few decades ago). Running them through my S&W 27 and 28 guns I see no reason to load hot. For me loading hot, especially in 44 Mag or 45 Colt just takes the enjoyment out of things. Anyway my cure is not to load them at max. Your mileage may vary as to accuracy and velocity.

Just My Take
Ron

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Ron hit it on the nail on the head. I do not understand the desire to load above max loads when other cartridges and guns are available to do just that. If I want to crash a 427 big block, I'll drag out my 460 S&W XVR.

There is no need to over load 45 Colt ammunition in my opinion regardless of the perceived capability of the revolver.

For the most part these days, my 357 Magnum ammunition is 158 grain SWC loaded to about 1000 fps from a 4" barrel revolver. I've obtained double ended wadcutter molds in 44 and 45 caliber for my 44 Special and 45 Colt guns and enjoy shooting them.

pairof44sp said:

If you find that every bump up a notch in power makes your revolver groups a little worse, what are the main culprits and workthrus?

Obvious things are:

hotter loads leave hands trembling and beat up

hotter loads make you jumpier

hotter loads make you “wrestle” the gun - holding down the muzzle under recoil uses up your “accuracy points” on stopping the bucking bronco ride

today at the range, I was shooting mellow 3.5g TG .38s out of a 642 DA

equally as accurately as

5.8g TG 357s out of a 6” GP 100

because every addl lb of recoil loosens up my “groups” by a bit.

What’s the cure?

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I'm going to go with: Stop using HOT loads !! Not good for your gun either. Story - Guy brings in a nice stainless steel Colt Python. and said he was having miss fires. I get to it the following day to take a look. I swing the cylinder out to make sure it is unloaded (habit) but I see slight indentations on the recoil shield that appear distinctive enough to catch my eye. I then look at the firing pin hole which has material rolled into hole. So I carefully clean up the firing pin hole, check the tension on the hammer spring and firing pin protrusion . Nothing else seems to be an issue, so I step into the range and test fire. No problem
Moral of the story : Either Colt was making soft metal guns, or this guy was shooting HOT loads. Maybe even hotter than max spec's . I leave a note to have the clerk ask him if he reloads, and put a note on the tag for the customer indicating that the gun was being damaged by what appears to be Hot loads. Clerk confirmed he was reloading, but said nothing about my note on the tag.

chicharrones said:

Just go easy with the 125 grain JHP magnums. I put quite a few factory loaded 125 JHPs through my GP100 over the years, well before I heard it was a bad thing to do in any .357 revolver.

Sadly, the forcing cone on my GP100 has plenty of wear. No, that's not leading.

View attachment 997007

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I have news for you. That forcing cone looks a lot better than mine does and I have never shot a 125 gr bullet in my GP100 in mine or it's life.
How's this!

This gun doesn't have that many rounds through it. Probably 5000 by now. All 158gr midrange loads with mostly lead and plated bullets.
Don't tell me how good Ruger guns are, I have old Smith and Wesson guns that have many times this round count through them that this GP100 has and their forcing cones look like they are only a couple years old. Specifically my Model 28 that was made in 1958. I don't know how many rounds I put through this gun of H110 loads and the forcing cone still looks fairly new.
I have Security Sixes and old Blackhawks that have more than twice the round count through them and they look like new compared to this GP100.
I called Ruger about it and they told me they would rebarrel it for $250.00. Other than that they didn't care. So save your breath about how good Ruger takes care of their customers.
I have multiple Rugers and were pleased with them until I bought this thing. What I won't have is any new Rugers because they have cheapened up the steel in them to save money.
My SP101 in .327FM that I bought later, is already chipping the forcing cone away and it has barely a few thousand rounds through it.
Those rounds are 90 grain lead SWC with 4.5 grs of Universal Clays under them.
That gun has exactly 200 rounds of 100gr JHP loads through it.

The only loads I have ever shot out of my old Blackhawk from the 70s are full magnum loads and that forcing cone also looks like it could pass for new.
If I buy any more Ruger .357 mags, they will be old Security Sixes.

tightgroup tiger said:

I have news for you. That forcing cone looks a lot better than mine does and I have never shot a 125 gr bullet in my GP100 in mine or it's life.
How's this!
View attachment 997551
This gun doesn't have that many rounds through it. Probably 5000 by now. All 158gr midrange loads with mostly lead and plated bullets.
Don't tell me how good Ruger guns are, I have old Smith and Wesson guns that have many times this round count through them that this GP100 has and their forcing cones look like they are only a couple years old. Specifically my Model 28 that was made in 1958. I don't know how many rounds I put through this gun of H110 loads and the forcing cone still looks fairly new.
I have Security Sixes and old Blackhawks that have more than twice the round count through them and they look like new compared to this GP100.
I called Ruger about it and they told me they would rebarrel it for $250.00. Other than that they didn't care. So save your breath about how good Ruger takes care of their customers.
I have multiple Rugers and were pleased with them until I bought this thing. What I won't have is any new Rugers because they have cheapened up the steel in them to save money.
My SP101 in .327FM that I bought later, is already chipping the forcing cone away and it has barely a few thousand rounds through it.
Those rounds are 90 grain lead SWC with 4.5 grs of Universal Clays under them.
That gun has exactly 200 rounds of 100gr JHP loads through it.

The only loads I have ever shot out of my old Blackhawk from the 70s are full magnum loads and that forcing cone also looks like it could pass for new.
If I buy any more Ruger .357 mags, they will be old Security Sixes.

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What year is your GP100?

Mine is from the early to mid 1990s.

I'll look when I get home tonight.

In my case when the load gets heavy I tend to grip harder with my strong side hand. I have to hold the gun fairly light with the strong side and apply more grip with my week side if I'm going to shoot fairly accurately. Once I remind myself of that and concentrate on what works for me, I can shoot a group with hot loads.

tightgroup tiger said:

I'll look when I get home tonight.

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It looks like your GP100 has no top strap flame cutting. Neither does mine.

A bigger question to me is, "why the passion for overloading ammunition when better, bigger stuff is available, and safe too."
OOPS, an opinion. Sorry. No, not sorry.
I'll go to about 850 fps with my 624 or NM Blackhawk specials, 750 for my old original Bulldog. If I want roaring/flaming/earsplitting rounds I use my 29 or Super. Just me. (and those are book slightly less than max)

Max loads = more money, more wear and tear. If you need different terminal ballistics , use a different gun.

Hot loads beat me up and cause me to flinch.

mjsdwash said:

my understanding is adding more pressure causes the powder to burn in inconsistent pulses from the added heat and pressure, rather than a mostly continuous wave. More pressure also stretches the brass and chamber, in ways that they're inherent, unrelieved stresses dictate. Pulses in the burn rate will cause significant variation in velocity. Distortion in brass and chambers will cause differences in leade and muzzle interaction.
I don't see an extra 50fps really having an operator level effect on accuracy.

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I've been involved in this game for decades and have never heard of any of that.

I am aware of several records, both rifle and handgun, which were shot with max or near max loads. In particular, I recall Ross Seyfried's MOA revolver which was shot with firewall .45 Colt loads that likely would have scattered a typical SAA.

chicharrones said:

What year is your GP100?

Mine is from the early to mid 1990s.

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@chicharrones
I bought mine in 2014. You are right, there is hardly any flame cutting on the top strap.

I can't speak for anyone else but for me my accuracy goes down as the recoil forces increase. I'm fine up to .38/9mm/.40 S&W levels and shoot them nearly as well as .22 rimfire. Above that and the anticipation of recoil screws me up and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'm well aware it's a mental game for the most part and have tried to overcome it but now I accept my limitations and just enjoy shooting those that I shoot well.

"Hot load' is a vague term that doesn't really mean anything. I avoid using it in favor of more explicit terms.

twarr1 said:

Max loads = more money, more wear and tear. If you need different terminal ballistics , use a different gun.

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cfullgraf said:

Ron hit it on the nail on the head. I do not understand the desire to load above max loads when other cartridges and guns are available to do just that. If I want to crash a 427 big block, I'll drag out my 460 S&W XVR.

There is no need to over load 45 Colt ammunition in my opinion regardless of the perceived capability of the revolver.

For the most part these days, my 357 Magnum ammunition is 158 grain SWC loaded to about 1000 fps from a 4" barrel revolver. I've obtained double ended wadcutter molds in 44 and 45 caliber for my 44 Special and 45 Colt guns and enjoy shooting them.

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This always depends on what you're trying to accomplish, why and most importantly, with what guns. The use of "Ruger only" loads is well documented, the trail has been beaten, graded and paved into a four lane highway. There are no unknowns. We know exactly what loads work in what guns. The capability is real, not perceived.

We also know that all guns chambering the same cartridge are not created equal. Sure, you can stick to whatever SAAMI says and treat your Redhawk like an N-frame or you can take advantage of the Ruger's added strength. Probably not desirable if all you're doing is punching paper but if you're hunting, then it might be something you want to explore. "Use a different" gun sounds great on the surface but when you venture beyond standard .44Mag loads, your options are greatly reduced. The .454 is the most often touted and it's a great cartridge but you may not want to go that far. If you already have a Ruger Redhawk, Super Redhawk or Dan Wesson .44 or .45Colt, there may be little reason to buy a .454.

Shooting a revolver with precision is very much like playing a difficult piece of music well on an instrument, It is impossible to do, until you actually do it perfectly, and you only do it, after months and months of precision practice.
Many times you discover, your choice of guns, by a now former novice, is less than adequate for the task at hand. So you improve and then improve upon the choice of guns based on your capability, the gun never should be bought to make you better, only to add to your consistency once you get better.