More Accurate 9mm Loads

ParallelCode said:

I ended up stopping my workup for the HAP w/ power pistol significantly below max (5.9gr). The accuracy was OK, but not great -- it looks like continuing to workup to max is worthwhile.

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I've not tried PP at less than 6.0 gr with 115s, only 6.0 and 6.5 gr. but it has produced some very nice groups with a 115 Zero JHP-conical.

Different guns like different stuff but PP seems to work well in the 9mm.

PO2Hammer said:

It's not the brass.

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Yeah it is. Out of 20 something head stamps this is the one I have the most trouble with.

CBC is rock hard brass, maybe that is contributing to your issue.
My bad.

fxvr5 said:

DMW1116, what kind of accuracy are you getting? What distance are you shooting?

Soonerpesek, Ransom's Multi Cal Steady Rest is not the same as their Master Rest, which is the Ransom Rest people are referring to.

Testing has shown that crooked bullets are not less accurate than straight bullets in the typical handgun at typical distance.
https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

Using mixed brass is probably not a big deal unless you're chasing accuracy in a match gun.

The typical S&W M&P9 is not really a match grade gun. A Shield even less so. Here's a article or two on the accuracy of M&P9s. All testing was done in a (real) Ransom Rest at 25 yards.
https://www.shootingillustrated.com...mo-accuracy-15-loads-in-three-different-guns/
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/12/26/review-smith-wesson-5-mp-m20-9mm/
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2020/1/14/apex-tactical-barrels-for-smith-wesson-mp-pistols/

M&Ps, in my experience, are combat accurate. Expect 4-5" groups at 25 yards with ammo they like.

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Interesting that the Apex barrel slugged at .357. I would have expected a bit tighter. Still, I guess that’s solidly in the spec middle.

So, is it bore fit or lock-up that’s more important to pistol accuracy? Bullet engraving depth enter into it? What makes a pistol most accurate?

Personally, I’ve not given too much thought to super pistol accuracy. My records tell me I’ve had good results with a number of bullets and powders in my 4.5” barrels. My speed is fairly high in each weight but not max. Well, Blue Dot was pretty hot and accurate. If I get 4” at 75 feet, I’m good!

I am also trying to find some very accurate loads in 9mm, but so far it has been tough. I have more accurate loads in 357sig and 40s&w, so the search is still on. The best and most consistent accuracy so far in 9mm has been with PowerPistol.

The most accurate load I have tested with CFE Pistol in 9mm is the following:

9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
Case: WIN
COL: 1.125"
RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, CFEpistol, 5.8gr, FED100M
Average: 1188
ES: 45
SD: 16.4
Force: 360
PF: 136
Velocities: 1186, 1192, 1162, 1193, 1207
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.85"
Test Date: 03/05/2021

Using brass that will give consistent neck tension on the bullets is a must, if you don't have that you'll be chasing your tail.

I know we’re looking for accurate handloads, but my head is in accurate pistols and I found this: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/12/exclusive-testing-worlds-accurate-pistols-part/

Another aspect that hasn’t been mentioned is grip, recoil control, trigger press - the human element.

It would seem the gold standard is 2” @ 25 yds.

Here’s a good discussion on this forum:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/your-most-accurate-9mm-load.798125/

In my guns(9mm), 124 gold dots, or any of the RMR 124 grain bullets with BE-86 is a winner. Definitely worth looking into when the powder can be found.

NMexJim said:

It would seem the gold standard is 2” @ 25 yds.

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I base my target groupings on the NRA slow pistol dimensions. I would say that 1.51" @ 25 yards is good. If you can get it to .67" at 25 yards, then you and your load is very good.

vaalpens said:

View attachment 998997

I base my target groupings based on the NRA slow pistol dimensions. I would say that 1.51" @ 25 yards is good. If you can get it to .67" at 25 yards, then you and your load is very good.

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I would extend that to “you, your gun, and your load…”. How many rounds are in that tiny circle at 25 yards? 5, 10, all? I need to find a decent rest because I know I’m the weakest link of all that. Then if I developed a load that good, I’d lose my biggest excuse in USPSA competition.

I don’t want to knock anyone, but I think testing at anything under 25 yds is a waste of time.

Move out a way and use 10 shot groups. (Let’s not discuss group round count again)
Use a rest.
When you get a good group, next time at the range, shoot the same load and confirm.

I’m obviously not the world’s greatest shot - I find that my performance drops off remarkably quickly when trying to shoot groups. Reconfirming my results has been essential.

Rigorous ammo/gun accuracy testing requires certain methods. First, one must exclude the human. People are flawed in how they hold the gun still, press the trigger, and how good their vision is with respect to aligning the sights. All of these contribute to error.

The best method for testing ammo is to remove the barrel and place it in a barrel fixture that holds it in the same position for every shot. Few people have barrel fixtures.

The best way to test a gun is to use a Ransom Rest. Even this requires experience to do it without introducing error.

Also, 5-shot groups aren't worth much for serious testing. This is due to the randomness of group size even when shooting the same ammo with the gun in a Ransom Rest. The number of shots in a group is discussed at these links:
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/2/17/accuracy-testing-how-many-shots-in-the-group

DMW1116 said:

I haven’t shot factory ammo in a while, but if I remember right it was about the same or a bit worse. When all the mess started I quit shooting my factory ammo supply and started hand loading.

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One of my 'tricks of the trade' is to always bring along some factory ammos with a known performance. I use it initially to prove my chronograph setup (with a known velocity from prior sessions,) and/or with a known accuracy potential from a particular pistol or rifle. It can also be a barometer of performance... for example, if my .308 handload can't beat Federal GMM factory ammos... then I need to reevaluate my handload.

lordpaxman said:

I would extend that to “you, your gun, and your load…”. How many rounds are in that tiny circle at 25 yards? 5, 10, all? I need to find a decent rest because I know I’m the weakest link of all that. Then if I developed a load that good, I’d lose my biggest excuse in USPSA competition.

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Correct, the gun also. I just do 5 shot groupings. But what I do is retest the same load every now and then. This normally tells me if something is repeatable/good load or not.

The 25yard 1.51" grouping is definitely doable based on my records. I use a rest and a scope to help me since I am not a bullseye shooter. I am purely trying to test my loads.

DMW1116 said:

Ok so I probably should start from the beginning. Next time I go to the range I’ll take some factory ammo and compare them to my current batch of hand loads out of both pistols. Then I’ll at least have a good starting point. I can test on the rifle range as long as I’m using a rest. It might even be worth it to try some new brass, which is available here. All my previous work was done with range brass, though much of it was from my own guns. I did match head stamps for testing purposes.

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This was going to be my recommendation.
For instance, my Glocks like the PMC Bronze 115 grain ammo for accuracy and consistency. I tried to emulate the specs for PMC Bronze in my reloads.
115 grain FMJ at 1150 FPS
I loaded 115 grain Berry's TMJ using Universal powder.
Hodgdon's site showed a charge of 5.0 grains of Universal should have a velocity of 1149 FPS
As it turns that accuracy from the rounds I loaded with a charge of 4.9 grains of Universal emulated the accuracy that I had with the PMC factory ammo.

If you have a factory load that is accurate then try to simulate that load with your reloads.

115 gr RMR FMJ and Longshot out of my G19, 43X, G17 and Sig P365 shoot great. Below is indoor at 15 yards with that load and G19.

The problem with testing at 25 yards is there is too big of a reliance on the human factor. Even with the best rest you can buy, unless you put a good scope on and can truly make sure each and every shot is precisely aimed you just can't rule out the human vision factor.

The thread referenced where they tested many target pistols pointed that out as a limitation.

packetloss said:

The problem with testing at 25 yards is there is too big of a reliance on the human factor. Even with the best rest you can buy, unless you put a good scope on and can truly make sure each and every shot is precisely aimed you just can't rule out the human vision factor.

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This is why I test at 15 yards. It still shows a difference between my loads and allows me to narrow down the loads I want to further test. Once I have selected a load, I'll then load maybe 50 rounds or so and do some more functional testing. Once in a while I will just take these and other selected loads and test them again up to 25 and 50 yards. I f the load keep on delivering, then I know I have an accurate load that is also reliable. Finding a load you like and trust is a process. Don't rush it.