Les Baer (thoughts)

tark said:

And don't forget Richard Heinie!!

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I missed a few but you know what I am saying. There are artist who work in steel that fire 45 ACP projectiles. When you have a gun from one of them it just feels different in the hand.

tark said:

I'm having a bit of a problem with this post. The extractor hole was drilled out oval? And removing "a few burrs" fixed the problem? Please explain how that works. The rear sight was "molded poorly?" That means that the man who fitted the sight didn't notice the defect. Neither did the final assembler who then test fired the gun after assembly. The same goes for the front sight. Finally, Les himself would have missed all this when he gave the gun a final visual inspection. Yes, Les really did look over every gun before it was bagged and shipped. And finally, the checkering was full of crossovers in the lines? I did that checkering so this is kind of personal to me. It did not leave my bench with crossed lines. There certainly aren't any in the picture you posted. Here again the assemblers and Les himself would not miss anything that obvious.

I'll concede the blueing problem. Baer's have that reputation. But your other complaints seem....uh.....well, nevermind.

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Wish I had pic's of the checkering. 3 or 4 cross overs in the front strap checkering. I was expecting hand work, wasn't trying to be fussy, they just stood out.

The burr was less than 1/16 square, hanging off the breach face at the extractor hole. I had failures to feed out of the gate, found the burr, removed it, gun ran fine after that.
Never implied it fixed the oval hole, just the ft-feed issues.

The extractor hole was only an internal flaw that didn't affect the gun, I only mentioned it as an indication of the apparent speed of production. I was a CNC machinist for years, I know when the feed rate is too high on a drilled hole. (looked more like a threaded hole)

The rear sight blade had rounded corners at the slot, one side was very rounded, maybe a 1/16" radius, the other only partially, like the material didn't flow into the mold fully, which left a lop sided sight picture.
Pretty clearly a molded part that didn't come out quite right. The front was also twisted, so it was not square to the rear sight. Dovetail looked square, just a mal-formed front ramp.

You worked there, don't tell me those sights were fully machined from bar stock, they looked like cheapest vendor sights available.

I actually hope Les and the gang are doing well, just trying to post my experience. I may not describe it well, but it was my money, my opinion.

My experience with Les Baer was disappointing. I love shooting 1911s so I wanted to step up from regular production pistols. I purchased one of the concept pistols with a stainless frame and blued slide a few years ago. The fit and finish were exceptional. It was very tight and super accurate. However, I had feeding/ extraction problems. I called their customer service and they told me they were made tight and it just needed more rounds of quality ammo to break it in. They recommended Federal AE 230gr ball ammo. I had already put 400 rounds in the gun with various ball ammo. I ran about 400 rounds of AE through the gun and still had the same problems. I called back and they told me to send it in (on my dime of course). They told me it worked fine and I never knew if they did anything to it or not. When I got it back it did the same thing. I called back and was told it was most likely my fault because nothing was wrong with the pistol but if I wanted I could send it back again (on my dime). I parted ways with the pistol and settled on a Dan Wesson Valor. While not quite as eye catching, the DW has never given me a problem. Had the Baer functioned correctly, it would have been my favorite pistol. I realize this happens with every brand. However, when I pay that kind of money I expect better customer service. Shipping handguns the right way when you don’t have an FFL is $$$$$. I’ve had to use Customer Service from Ruger, S&W, Sig, and Beretta in the past for minor issues and those companies were super to deal with. If a pistol needs more than 1,000 rounds to be broken in something is wrong. To be fair, if Baer paid for shipping and was more responsive I would have really liked to have one because it shot like a laser. As I’ve gotten older and spent a lot more time shooting, I’ve discovered I enjoy Sig and Ruger 1911s as much as any and they don’t break the bank.

As much as I do love Baers, I had a smaller Concept VII that would not run reliably. If I bought another, it would be a 5” model....likely a UTC or a Mono.

KYamateur said:

My experience with Les Baer was disappointing. I love shooting 1911s so I wanted to step up from regular production pistols. I purchased one of the concept pistols with a stainless frame and blued slide a few years ago. The fit and finish were exceptional. It was very tight and super accurate. However, I had feeding/ extraction problems. I called their customer service and they told me they were made tight and it just needed more rounds of quality ammo to break it in. They recommended Federal AE 230gr ball ammo. I had already put 400 rounds in the gun with various ball ammo. I ran about 400 rounds of AE through the gun and still had the same problems. I called back and they told me to send it in (on my dime of course). They told me it worked fine and I never knew if they did anything to it or not. When I got it back it did the same thing. I called back and was told it was most likely my fault because nothing was wrong with the pistol but if I wanted I could send it back again (on my dime). I parted ways with the pistol and settled on a Dan Wesson Valor. While not quite as eye catching, the DW has never given me a problem. Had the Baer functioned correctly, it would have been my favorite pistol. I realize this happens with every brand. However, when I pay that kind of money I expect better customer service. Shipping handguns the right way when you don’t have an FFL is $$$$$. I’ve had to use Customer Service from Ruger, S&W, Sig, and Beretta in the past for minor issues and those companies were super to deal with. If a pistol needs more than 1,000 rounds to be broken in something is wrong. To be fair, if Baer paid for shipping and was more responsive I would have really liked to have one because it shot like a laser. As I’ve gotten older and spent a lot more time shooting, I’ve discovered I enjoy Sig and Ruger 1911s as much as any and they don’t break the bank.

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Seems to be a common story with Baer and their CS. They do seem to have a reputation of being more finicky, likely from how tightly they are fitted and their accuracy as a result.

I've sent my DW VBob in twice for service, cosmetic issues and not functional issues, and both times shipping was on them. Shipping label, box, and really quick turnaround time. Good communication, I was happy.

When you get over that $2000 mark, even today, if you look you can find some Wilson Combats for $2300-$2500 (and of course up!) with patience. And, while not as accurate on paper, Wilson has that reputation for reliability and excellent CS.

PO2Hammer said:

I actually hope Les and the gang are doing well, just trying to post my experience. I may not describe it well, but it was my money, my opinion.

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You will notice I gave you a "like." But if you criticize someone's workmanship please remember the golden rule here on the forum:

Pics, or it didn't happen.

Mark_Mark said:

I do like the cruder feel, I checked one out yesterday and it was tight light a vacuum cleaner to unlock, but smooth like butter. I’ll probably buy one and get a leather holster to get the “wear” look. Look that look on classic guns

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Mark_Mark said:

WOW! I kindda like the look, if it was 10 years old from wear and tear.

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I guess I've never understood that mindset. People pay extra for "new" jeans that look tattered and worn-out from the get-go. Contrived "wear and tear" turns me off. If my guns (or britches) look like they've had some use on them, it's because I did the using. If you want to save a lot of time and money to get a good gun that looks like it was ridden hard and put away wet for ten years, buy a new Colt or Dan Wesson pistol along with a few rocks and run it in your brass tumbler for ten minutes or so. Viola!

I agree with PO2Hammer: "Character comes from honest wear over time (emphasis mine)".

I've owned 3. Heavyweight Mono, PMII, and Recon. All functioned flawlessly but I wanted more refinement for my money so they were all sold to upscale to other semi custom builders

Although, I would buy another Recon if I find one at a decent price.

WVsig said:

Let me start by saying I like 1911s. I have owned everything from basic stock Colts and SA up to complete full house customs built on Colt base guns or bare frames. I shoot a lot of 1911. BHPs and 1911s are my go to platforms. I still caution you to take my statements with a grain of salt and remember how much you paid for them. For me personally Dan Wessons are the current gateway drug to higher end 1911s. They are a step up from standard production Colts and SAs. Les Baer is a step up in some ways from Dan Wesson and it a step down in others.

Step Up:

1. With Les Baer you move into the world of the semi-custom production line gun. There are options available to you if you want to order directly from them vs buying off the shelf. So things like magwells, ambi safeties, sight changes, no front serrations etc....within the Les Baer universe are available which is a plus.
2. The guns are bank vault tight and if that is something you like you will not find a tighter fitting from the factory gun.
3. They are built to be working man's guns IMHO. They are not shadow box collectibles or pure BBQ guns. They are made to be lubed up run hard and put away wet.
4. Accuracy is on Avg IMHO better than most other production level guns but you as a shooter have to be able to take advantage of it for that to matter.
5. They are built by hand in a more old school way then a lot of other modern 1911s as I understand it using less CNC machining and more hand work then most other pistols at this price point.

Step Down:

1. They have limited finish options and those options are old school. Blue, SS or Hard Chrome. IIRC. No other more modern and durable finishes like Ion Bond or Melonite. The bluing is also often thin.
2. They use frames with Govt length rails for all guns including Commanders and Officer sized guns. As note by others this means some Commanders and Officer sized configurations will not sling shot because of dimensional issues. This can be corrected by other smiths but not by Les Baer.
3. Limited Sight options.
4. Frame are dimensionally different than most others these days. The back strap is off in a couple ways. Mainly the hole location and key way for the MSH. The trigger opening is way undersized than it needs to be.. Aftermarket grips do no always fit properly. Things like magwells and other mainspring housings do not fit because of the location of the mainspring housing pin location. This is an issue with Le Claire frames more than Hillside.
5. Les has a reputation of being a PIA and that their answer to every problem is shoot the gun more and call us back. For a $2000 1911 they have a poor customer service rep vs someone like S&W.

I currently own 2 Les Baers. A TRS and a Concept VII which both run 100%. I can even slingshot the Concept VII. My TRS is an late Hillside frame and the Concept VII is a Le Claire. I love both of them and consider them high quality 1911s. The TRS was my first step up from a Dan Wesson CBOB Classic which at the time was often called the poor man's. I did not buy them NIB. Both were LNIB when I got them. So new looking I did the break in procedure as if they were new. I bought the TRS used and the Concept VII came to me in a trade recently. I am extremely happy with these 2 guns based on what I have in them.

Now I think the comparison of the Les Baer to a Wilson or Higher end Ed Brown is a false comparison. There is a pretty big price jump to get to the Wilson from the Baer. The Wilson will be 50% more than the Les Baer. I am comparing it the Baer to a CQB Wilson. That is a bit jump and the difference in the two guns is philosophical and for the most part cosmetic. The Wilson will look better. It will have less tool marks. The finish will be cleaner. Shooting the 2 at 25 yards and under 99% of us will not shoot better with one over the other. Saying that the Baer is not as nice as a Wilson is like me saying my CBOB does not compare to my Les Baer. It is a false comparison.

I think @JTQ nailed it. If you educate yourself on what you are getting with a Baer and you are cool with that or it appeals to you then get one. They are built to be hard use guns. They are made to be road hard and put away wet. They are perfect for someone who wants a hard use 1911 and does not plan to modify it much down the line. As I said frame dimension can make things like magwells and grips expensive modifications. They will not be the prettiest 1911 but they have an old school feel. They will have tool marks on the inside. They will show wear from use but IMHO that is what you buy them for. You buy them to shoot them. They are made to go in and out of holster thousands of times over their existence and are built with a finish which will show it. They are to me an excellent working man's 1911. This is an old pic of my TRS. It has a lot more wear these days. I don't think I will ever part with it in my lifetime. @tark is a great resource for info on Baers. Another one the 1911 forum and 1911Adicts forum is Rob Schauland.of Alchemy Custom who also worked for Les.

As to their reliability and build quality overall they are excellent. The vast majority of guns run and we never hear about any issues. The issues we do hear are often magnified and repeated over and over again in the echo chamber of the internet these days. As Ken Hackathorn likes to quote Jeff Gonzales "Even a monkey falls out of a tree sometimes." It is really about how does the company deal with the issues that come up. See #5 in Step downs.... LOL

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You know the more I read your post the more I like it. Great post.

I am one of those who wanted an accurate and reliable 1911 and did not want to wait years for one from a Nationally known gunsmith, and did not want to pay an excessive amount.

The best service rifle shooter I ever knew was Quinn Moore of Alabama. He would have won the 1997 Civilian Service Rifle Championship at Camp Perry if Danielle Abbott, had not cheated him out of it. She was an Expert Class junior from Queen Creek AZ , and carried blank score cards which after every stage, she filled out a match winning score and turned them in. She is still listed as the 1997 winner on the Civilian Club Member’s Trophy. https://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/nat-trophy/tro-062.pdf Such is life and the NRA.

Anyway, Quinn was absolutely unromantic about rifle appearance. They were tools to him, and once when someone commented to Quinn taking a wood rasp to a M1a stock, Quin retorted "Do you want to shoot your rifle or make love to it?". I remember, Quinn had a run of 10 straight 300 yard rapid fire cleans with an M1a, and I did not ask where it ended. He was amazing. And I am of the opinion, for a competitor, Quinn was right. Do you want to shoot your firearm, or make love to it?


There are those to whom pretty guns are the all to end all. We all see these artworks on the covers of magazines, many are never shot after the factory function test. I am more interested in sights that move a click, when a click is put on. I am more interested in sights that are plumb, so the group goes left and right, and not on a diagonal, when the sights are adjusted. I want an excellent trigger and perfect function. For competition pistols, I want all that, smooth operation and accuracy. I am not sure the pretty pistol people really care about such things. Perfectly matched blue finishes, I could care less. Purple does not bother me, I view finishes as rust proofing and I prefer parkerization for a good cheap, durable finish. Charcoal blue and rust bluing do give a wonderful blue color, but these are delicate, and don’t make the rifle or pistol shoot any better.

You shoot a pistol enough, it wears. This is still a great pistol, wear included



I must have made 10,000 presentations with this pistol, practicing the quick draw games of the time. Wore out three hammers and am on the second sear. So it has wear, so what, still a good range toy.




Tool marks, so what. If the pistol functions, goes bang each time, and is accurate, tooling marks in non critical areas are absolutely unimportant. People love shiny guns. If you think shiny guns shoot better, than go buy a real shiny gun. At some level of cosmetics, you are just putting lipstick on a pig. On a 1911 the feed ramp and breech face should be slick and smooth, can’t think what else should be polished.

I do not consider Les Baer as crudely made. A gun designer bud was at a machine shop machining Les Baer frames. He said one frame was having its frame rails cut by a CNC machine. The previous frame cut, was having the frame rail cuts measured by a computer probe, which was feeding tool wear, real time, back to the CNC cutter. This is an amazing level of precision and one reason my Les Baer has no wobble between frame and slide, and still has no wobble between frame and slide. And, the slide moves smoothly back and forth and the frame.

It does not bother me if a group of specialists build a product, if they know their jobs, are good at it, a team effort is just fine. I know there are those who want the romance of the individual “craftsman”. The guy with hammer and tongs who will hammer and file out the gun all by himself. And there are guys who can do that. Most buy good parts and fit them together, filing and fitting as necessary. The good ones make great pistols and are to be appreciated for their skill and dedication. You may have to wait years to get your gun. The head of the All Guard Team, Dan Morgan, is also the team gunsmith. All his pistols are set up right, and shoot right. I asked Dan about his AD projects, and he said “what?”, and I explained that an AD project is one of things you will have time to get to, “AFTER DEATH!”. Dan just groaned, he is back ordered till the next millennium, if not longer. This is Dan




I will say, custom gunsmith work is expensive, takes a long time, and the value of the pistol is highest when the gunsmith is still active. When the gunsmith retires, or otherwise leaves, and his customers retire, the new winners start using pistols built by others. Custom gunsmithing is very much like the fashion industry, designs and designers of the past are quickly forgotten. I have heard a number of greybeards mention the smith who built their pistols, and I never heard of the guy, and while I am sure the gunsmith did good work, the name does not command a premium for me. Something goes wrong on a custom gunsmith pistol, you just don’t know what it will take to get the thing running again. Les Baer has been around, has lots of name recognition, I think Les Baer pistol will retain their value well. Not that it matters to me. I don’t plan to sell anything. I hope Les Baer stays around long enough to rebuild my wadcutter, when I finally shoot the barrel out, and when the hammer follows the slide. I think the sear will wear out first, barrels take a long time to shoot out with cast bullets.

Slamfire said:

You know the more I read your post the more I like it. Great post.

I am one of those who wanted an accurate and reliable 1911 and did not want to wait years for one from a Nationally known gunsmith, and did not want to pay an excessive amount.

The best service rifle shooter I ever knew was Quinn Moore of Alabama. He would have won the 1997 Civilian Service Rifle Championship at Camp Perry if Danielle Abbott, had not cheated him out of it. She was an Expert Class junior from Queen Creek AZ , and carried blank score cards which after every stage, she filled out a match winning score and turned them in. She is still listed as the 1997 winner on the Civilian Club Member’s Trophy. https://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/nat-trophy/tro-062.pdf Such is life and the NRA.

Anyway, Quinn was absolutely unromantic about rifle appearance. They were tools to him, and once when someone commented to Quinn taking a wood rasp to a M1a stock, Quin retorted "Do you want to shoot your rifle or make love to it?". I remember, Quinn had a run of 10 straight 300 yard rapid fire cleans with an M1a, and I did not ask where it ended. He was amazing. And I am of the opinion, for a competitor, Quinn was right. Do you want to shoot your firearm, or make love to it?


There are those to whom pretty guns are the all to end all. We all see these artworks on the covers of magazines, many are never shot after the factory function test. I am more interested in sights that move a click, when a click is put on. I am more interested in sights that are plumb, so the group goes left and right, and not on a diagonal, when the sights are adjusted. I want an excellent trigger and perfect function. For competition pistols, I want all that, smooth operation and accuracy. I am not sure the pretty pistol people really care about such things. Perfectly matched blue finishes, I could care less. Purple does not bother me, I view finishes as rust proofing and I prefer parkerization for a good cheap, durable finish. Charcoal blue and rust bluing do give a wonderful blue color, but these are delicate, and don’t make the rifle or pistol shoot any better.

You shoot a pistol enough, it wears. This is still a great pistol, wear included

View attachment 1002139

I must have made 10,000 presentations with this pistol, practicing the quick draw games of the time. Wore out three hammers and am on the second sear. So it has wear, so what, still a good range toy.

View attachment 1002140


Tool marks, so what. If the pistol functions, goes bang each time, and is accurate, tooling marks in non critical areas are absolutely unimportant. People love shiny guns. If you think shiny guns shoot better, than go buy a real shiny gun. At some level of cosmetics, you are just putting lipstick on a pig. On a 1911 the feed ramp and breech face should be slick and smooth, can’t think what else should be polished.

I do not consider Les Baer as crudely made. A gun designer bud was at a machine shop machining Les Baer frames. He said one frame was having its frame rails cut by a CNC machine. The previous frame cut, was having the frame rail cuts measured by a computer probe, which was feeding tool wear, real time, back to the CNC cutter. This is an amazing level of precision and one reason my Les Baer has no wobble between frame and slide, and still has no wobble between frame and slide. And, the slide moves smoothly back and forth and the frame.

It does not bother me if a group of specialists build a product, if they know their jobs, are good at it, a team effort is just fine. I know there are those who want the romance of the individual “craftsman”. The guy with hammer and tongs who will hammer and file out the gun all by himself. And there are guys who can do that. Most buy good parts and fit them together, filing and fitting as necessary. The good ones make great pistols and are to be appreciated for their skill and dedication. You may have to wait years to get your gun. The head of the All Guard Team, Dan Morgan, is also the team gunsmith. All his pistols are set up right, and shoot right. I asked Dan about his AD projects, and he said “what?”, and I explained that an AD project is one of things you will have time to get to, “AFTER DEATH!”. Dan just groaned, he is back ordered till the next millennium, if not longer. This is Dan


View attachment 1002141

I will say, custom gunsmith work is expensive, takes a long time, and the value of the pistol is highest when the gunsmith is still active. When the gunsmith retires, or otherwise leaves, and his customers retire, the new winners start using pistols built by others. Custom gunsmithing is very much like the fashion industry, designs and designers of the past are quickly forgotten. I have heard a number of greybeards mention the smith who built their pistols, and I never heard of the guy, and while I am sure the gunsmith did good work, the name does not command a premium for me. Something goes wrong on a custom gunsmith pistol, you just don’t know what it will take to get the thing running again. Les Baer has been around, has lots of name recognition, I think Les Baer pistol will retain their value well. Not that it matters to me. I don’t plan to sell anything. I hope Les Baer stays around long enough to rebuild my wadcutter, when I finally shoot the barrel out, and when the hammer follows the slide. I think the sear will wear out first, barrels take a long time to shoot out with cast bullets.

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Thanks for the compliment. Right back at you. I am one of those people who buys really nice custom guns and ruins them by shooting them. LOL

I will say that within certain circles named smiths guns go up in value after they have passed. I can think of people like Austin Behlert , Jim Hoag and recently Jim Garthwaite whose pistols have gone up in value after they were gone. Not everyone knows who they are. 99% of gun 1911 owners don't know who these people are but there is a set of people who do and they will pay large sums of money for one of their pistols. I own a Garthwaite BHP and I have had people offer almost double what I paid to have it built even after I have shoot thousands of rounds out of it because there will be no more.

Mark_Mark said:

Nice Write up! you should write articles. I wish my grammar was this good

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Thanks. If it were not for spell check, I would be functionally illiterate. My verb tenses are off, and there are missing words, but I am glad it read well.

A monolith heavy in 9mm is on my short list. I almost went with a Les Baer just because of the accuracy guarantee, but ended up going with an accuracy x. (Cannot say enough good things about them)

You can find some deals on used Baers, I bought a Hillsdale Premier II with 1.5" guarantee (I later found out) for $1,300 a few years ago. Very accurate and has never malfunctioned, unlike my last two new Colts. It has some wear but I don't care. A step up from a DW Valor I used to own, being carbon steel. The DW had a rattling grip safety that bugged my and too aggressive front strap checkering for my tastes, not being hand checkered like Baers that's as fine as DW can do them. Kind of cool to think back in those Hillsdale days at least Les personally fired every gun that left the factory, I believe.

Mark_Mark said:

I bought a new manufactured Colt, and they are rough. Factory mags don’t work, had to used Wilson CB officer 920 mags to make them work.

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I believe it. My last two were a Gold Cup that wasn't reliable after going back to Colt twice, I gave up on the clowns at Colt and sent it to a Colt forum member who fixed it in 20 minutes, he pointed out defects that never should have left the factory. The other was a Competition that only recently came back from the second trip to Colt for empties to the head, it was basically there from August to March.

I like the Colt name as much as anyone but for a bit more you can get a used Baer that's a much better gun. Here's one in great shape that recently went for $1,732, about what a Gold Cup Trophy is going for these days:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/896858385

Paul7 said:

Les personally fired every gun that left the factory, I believe.

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Indeed he did. The Shop was right next to Les' house, (that's handy) and the shooting range was about a half mile away, in the AR shop's building. A couple times a day, Les would load up a rack of newly assembled guns into the back of his truck and off he went. Upon his return we determined how things had panned out by the number of "F" bombs that were dropped. Les is very nit-picky and even a relatively minor screw up was called out. After chewing your butt, he forgot all about it. Just don't make the same mistake again. Les finally had to stop test firing every gun himself because of arthritis and some bad cervical vertebrae that couldn't take even the minor shock of shooting. Those came from his drag racing years. Yanking the parachute jerks your head forward at four or five Gs. It was a common injury before the introduction of the HANS device.

Paul7 said:

You can find some deals on used Baers, I bought a Hillsdale Premier II with 1.5" guarantee (I later found out) for $1,300 a few years ago. Very accurate and has never malfunctioned, unlike my last two new Colts. It has some wear but I don't care. A step up from a DW Valor I used to own, being carbon steel. The DW had a rattling grip safety that bugged my and too aggressive front strap checkering for my tastes, not being hand checkered like Baers that's as fine as DW can do them. Kind of cool to think back in those Hillsdale days at least Les personally fired every gun that left the factory, I believe.

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"Even a monkey falls out of a tree sometimes."

You are comparing high volume and yes DW is a high volume 1911 manufacturer to a semi custom shop. Again I wish people would stop with the false comparisons.