Wheel Weights and Mixing With Alloyed Lead

kcofohio · Jun 7, 2021

Last year I recovered about 200 lbs. of wheel weights. After reading Glen Fryxell's From Ingot to Target, I figured I could make the WWs stretch out longer.

In chapter 3, http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.htm , he writes that more than 0.1% arsenic doesn't do any good. Wws on average contain about 0.3% arsenic.

My alloyed lead, 95-3-2, is 11-12 Bhn hardness with the pencil test. My WW alloyed with 2% tin is at 15 Bhn, after age hardening. If I mix the 2, at half and half, the mix is 15 Bhn after age hardening. That's at the same hardness as Lyman's #2, give or take.

My next mix I'm going to mix small batch of pure lead with the WWs. At 97-2-1 and 0.1%, Fryxell's chart shows I can get 17-18 Bhn with age hardening.

The drawback of all this is the bullets will drop at a smaller diameter. But with powder coating, they should be okay.

BTW, have you seen how much tin has gone up? From the market chart I saw, it has nearly doubled since July of 2020. :uhoh:

Bfh_auto · Jun 7, 2021

I have about 200 pounds of wheel weights and the same amount of plumbers lead.
I'm thinking about doing the same thing you are. Instead of going after tin and antimony.

kcofohio · Jun 7, 2021

Bfh_auto said:
I have about 200 pounds of wheel weights and the same amount of plumbers lead.
I'm thinking about doing the same thing you are. Instead of going after tin and antimony.

Yeah, it was hard to swallow when I paid nearly $12 a pound for tin. Now it's like $24 of better a pound. Gulp!

Thomasss · Jun 7, 2021

kcofohio, you didn't mention what caliber you are casting for?
Looking for tin? Try to find a dentist that still uses film x-rays. The film 'lead' shielding is almost 85% tin. And dentists pay people to dispose of this "hazardous" material. I made a dental group very happy by "disposing" their x-ray waste for free. Another tin source is small air conditioning tubing. Some junk yards will often sell scrap back to you too.

forrest r · Jun 7, 2021

Why do you need a 15bhn+ alloy???

kcofohio · Jun 7, 2021

Thomasss said:
kcofohio, you didn't mention what caliber you are casting for?
Looking for tin? Try to find a dentist that still uses film x-rays. The film 'lead' shielding is almost 85% tin. And dentists pay people to dispose of this "hazardous" material. I made a dental group very happy by "disposing" their x-ray waste for free. Another tin source is small air conditioning tubing. Some junk yards will often sell scrap back to you too.

I'll have to ask next time I'm there. So far for 9mm, 38/357, 45 Auto, and 300 Blk.

kcofohio · Jun 7, 2021

forrest r said:
Why do you need a 15bhn+ alloy???

Right now more of experimenting. Not sure what hardness 357 mag. in rifle, will be needed. And in AR, how it will be when going to supersonic.

Casting is still new to me.

crestoncowboy · Jun 7, 2021

I have a shop and a mounting machine with digital balancer I occasionally use. As I have piled up old sticks on weights i keep saying I'm going to start casting bullets. I do shoot lead in 44 and .40. There are so many different metals and coatings though.

AJC1 · Jun 7, 2021

Your 38 and 45 rounds can be way softer. 8 or 9 is plenty. 12 should work well in 357 and a 300 bo will be highly dependent on weight and speed. Heavy subsonics I would try 12. 9mm is high pressure and not something I cast for.

jmorris · Jun 7, 2021

I mix alloys to a drop weight from a mold I use as a standard. Heavy, needs lighter than lead alloys, light, add more pure lead.

Bfh_auto · Jun 7, 2021

jmorris said:
I mix alloys to a drop weight from a mold I use as a standard. Heavy, needs lighter than lead alloys, light, add more pure lead.

That's a great idea. I'll have to try it.
Right now I get 3 grains heavy from a mold that says it is supposed to be 247 with hard cast.

jmorris · Jun 7, 2021

Bfh_auto said:
That's a great idea. I'll have to try it.
Right now I get 3 grains heavy from a mold that says it is supposed to be 247 with hard cast.

That may or may not be the given mold. Why I said I use “a” mold as a standard. It’s the one mold I have set aside, that I know what weight bullet “certified” lead will drop from it.

Hanshi · Jun 7, 2021

I, too, had a couple hundred pounds of WW and used it straight for handgun bullets. It made the most accurate bullets I've ever fired. I have yet to find commercial bullets that work as well in my revolvers. For rifles I hardened them a bit with linotype which worked great. But I rarely cast anything other than lead balls nowadays, and that does best for most muzzleloading shooting. But WW ball also did very well both in rifle and smoothbores. Soft lead ball in rifles does great with deer. Never had to use more than one shot. Sometimes the ball would exit, and sometimes it would be found under the off-side skin flattened out like a coin. WW ball never flattened much at all but it didn't matter in 20 ga and up smoothbores.

Bfh_auto · Jun 7, 2021

jmorris said:
That may or may not be the given mold. Why I said I use “a” mold as a standard. It’s the one mold I have set aside, that I know what weight bullet “certified” lead will drop from it.

I see. Thanks I'll file that away for later knowledge.

milboltnut · Jun 7, 2021

Wheel Weights,15 BHN... standard for most applications. It leaves no fouling in my .357

I see WW's on ebay all the time. And cheap too.

brewer12345 · Jun 7, 2021

I think that you are still erring on the side of harder than necessary. I cast 45 bullets for full power 45 ACP and some plain base 180 grain bullets for some down loaded 350 Legend out of alloy that was about 8.5 BHN. No issues and very good accuracy. The 180s pencil out in quickload at around 1250FPS. Mostly use WW alloy around 11 or 12 BHN for higher pressure rifle loads. Unless you are trying for something at or over 2000 FPS, I don't think it will take much more hardness. Fit and proper lube/coating is more important than hardness unless you are trying to push the envelope.

greyling22 · Jun 8, 2021

Bullets that are too hard don't obdurate well with lower pressure loads. And I envy all you guys with 200lbs of wheel weights. Been a long time since I had that many.

Akula69 · Jun 8, 2021

greyling22 said:
And I envy all you guys with 200lbs of wheel weights. Been a long time since I had that many.

I actually met a tire shop owner at a range (well, I'd bought tires from them and never met him too). After talking for a bit we agreed to trade cases I didn't load for WW lead. He's been in business since dirt....and has quite a bit saved up (for "emergencies", he says....)

My lead comes out in the pencil test at about 11, and I powder coat then size them. .30, .38 and 9MM

scott1970 · Jun 8, 2021

I've always used straight WWs for all my cast bullets regardless of the caliber.

forrest r · Jun 8, 2021

Twist rate and bullet design are a huge part of what your trying to do. While alloy is important, your manipulation of your alloy's is where the games won or lost. Pc'ing your cast bullets, it's low cost brings so much to the table. You can use a lot lower bhn alloy with pc'd bullets with excellent results

Myself I always started low with the bhn's alloy and worked up if needed. At the end of the day your going to find that alloys will perform in pressure ranges. The alloy will not be caliber specific, nor will it require a lot of tin.

I'd be mixing your ww's with your alloy and add 3/4% tin to end up with 95/2.5/2.5 alloy. Tin does 2 things for your alloy. It aids in fill out of the bullet,/clean sharp edges. It also makes your alloy malleable/elastic. You only need fill out for 357 bullets, there isn't enough rotational torque exerted on them to need a high tin content alloy. A long bodied rifle bullet on the other hand has to be malleable enough to withstand the stresses applied to it. Those stresses are:
When the nose of the bullet enters the lands it starts to rotate. The back 1/2 of the bullet is still expanding/grabbing the freebore in the throat of the chamber while pushing forward. The higher the pressure of the load, the tighter/stronger the bullet presses against the walls of the freebore/leade due to expansion. This is the rotational torque that is being applied to the bullet. Front 1/2 twisting, back 1/2 expanding/locking into the bbl.

That manipulation thing:

Myself I use that 95/2.5/2.5 alloy this way:
1 part alloy to 2 parts pure lead (+/- 10bhn) for loads up to 16,000psi loads & water drop them for a 12/13bhn alloy for loads up to 25,000spi.
1 part alloy to 1 part pure lead (+/- 10bhn) water dropped for loads up to 35,000psi (14/15bhn)
Strait alloy air cooled for the high powered rifle bullets.

There's a huge difference between a bullets bhn and how malleable it is. you water drop an alloy to make it harder at the expense of the bullet being brittle. A pistol bullet doesn't need to be malleable, a rifle bullet on the other hand has to be when driven hard with high pressure loads.

It's good to have a large amount of a base alloy to work with.
It's good to have a pile of pure lead to mix with that alloy.
It's good to keep magnum shot around for the arsenic that's in it, a little goes a long way.
It's good to have lino-type or mono-type for when you need special alloys

FWIW:
22lr bullets are typically made with an alloy of pure lead to 1% to 1.5% antimony (10bhn). Those bullets can easily go 1200fps+ and withstand 20,000+psi loads. Simply because of the strong design of the bullet( short round nose/no lube groove)

Myself, I'm lucky enough to have a bunch of mono-type laying around along with +/- 30# of 50/50 bar solder.

kcofohio · Jun 8, 2021

forrest r said:
Twist rate and bullet design are a huge part of what your trying to do. While alloy is important, your manipulation of your alloy's is where the games won or lost. Pc'ing your cast bullets, it's low cost brings so much to the table. You can use a lot lower bhn alloy with pc'd bullets with excellent results

Myself I always started low with the bhn's alloy and worked up if needed. At the end of the day your going to find that alloys will perform in pressure ranges. The alloy will not be caliber specific, nor will it require a lot of tin.

I'd be mixing your ww's with your alloy and add 3/4% tin to end up with 95/2.5/2.5 alloy. Tin does 2 things for your alloy. It aids in fill out of the bullet,/clean sharp edges. It also makes your alloy malleable/elastic. You only need fill out for 357 bullets, there isn't enough rotational torque exerted on them to need a high tin content alloy. A long bodied rifle bullet on the other hand has to be malleable enough to withstand the stresses applied to it. Those stresses are:
When the nose of the bullet enters the lands it starts to rotate. The back 1/2 of the bullet is still expanding/grabbing the freebore in the throat of the chamber while pushing forward. The higher the pressure of the load, the tighter/stronger the bullet presses against the walls of the freebore/leade due to expansion. This is the rotational torque that is being applied to the bullet. Front 1/2 twisting, back 1/2 expanding/locking into the bbl.

That manipulation thing:
View attachment 1003402

Myself I use that 95/2.5/2.5 alloy this way:
1 part alloy to 2 parts pure lead (+/- 10bhn) for loads up to 16,000psi loads & water drop them for a 12/13bhn alloy for loads up to 25,000spi.
1 part alloy to 1 part pure lead (+/- 10bhn) water dropped for loads up to 35,000psi (14/15bhn)
Strait alloy air cooled for the high powered rifle bullets.

There's a huge difference between a bullets bhn and how malleable it is. you water drop an alloy to make it harder at the expense of the bullet being brittle. A pistol bullet doesn't need to be malleable, a rifle bullet on the other hand has to be when driven hard with high pressure loads.

It's good to have a large amount of a base alloy to work with.
It's good to have a pile of pure lead to mix with that alloy.
It's good to keep magnum shot around for the arsenic that's in it, a little goes a long way.
It's good to have lino-type or mono-type for when you need special alloys

FWIW:
22lr bullets are typically made with an alloy of pure lead to 1% to 1.5% antimony (10bhn). Those bullets can easily go 1200fps+ and withstand 20,000+psi loads. Simply because of the strong design of the bullet( short round nose/no lube groove)

Myself, I'm lucky enough to have a bunch of mono-type laying around along with +/- 30# of 50/50 bar solder.

I definitely have much to learn.

kcofohio · Jun 8, 2021

scott1970 said:
I've always used straight WWs for all my cast bullets regardless of the caliber.

It may be regional, but lead WWs seem to be getting more scarce. By the time I melted down all the lead WWs, separated the zinc and steel weights. I had half and half. I turned in 214 lbs. of steel to the scrap yard a few weeks ago. This included all the clips from the lead WWs.

FWIW, this scrap yard didn't have an option for zinc scrap, so it got thrown in with the steel.

whughett · Jun 8, 2021

Color me dumb. I’ve hand loaded for 45 years, hand cast bullets from what ever lead I can scrounge for 25+ and never gave much thought to lead hardness.
Of course all I’m doing is punching paper non competitively loading at target velocities. The few magnums are gas checked. Until about two years ago bullets were sized and hard lubed on a RCBS machine. Now it’s mostly Lee’s push thru sizers and liquid Alox.
38’s 44’s and 45’s both C and ACP.
Not knocking those that want to be very precise with those matters it’s just for most casual shooting chores it’s just not necessary.

crestoncowboy · Jun 8, 2021

kcofohio said:
It may be regional

It's definitely regional for now. But it will get more common to see lead banned. The sites I get my wheel weights from won't ship lead to a lot of places already. They automatically substitute steel.

milboltnut said:
I see WW's on ebay all the time. And cheap too.

The move to stick on weights from clip on should have made used wheel weights exponentially more available. We can reuse clip on weights much of the time. Stick on are one and done.

I despise stick on weight. Both having them on my own vehicles and using them on tires i balance. Lol. Do a proper dynamic balance on the rednecked pickup with 44 inch bloggers and the weights used approach the value of the truck. Lol. Plus you have to scrape off the old weights which can be a chore. Then remove any dirt or oxidated aluminum for the weight to have a chance of sticking.

Then on many sports cars there is about .0000001mm of clearance between the big 14 piston fixed caliper and the rim so you can't use 1 oz stick ons. Have to use 1/4 oz.......

I despise stick on weights

scott1970 · Jun 8, 2021

kcofohio said:
It may be regional, but lead WWs seem to be getting more scarce. By the time I melted down all the lead WWs, separated the zinc and steel weights. I had half and half. I turned in 214 lbs. of steel to the scrap yard a few weeks ago. This included all the clips from the lead WWs.

FWIW, this scrap yard didn't have an option for zinc scrap, so it got thrown in with the steel.

I focused on harvesting a lot of wheel weights some years ago, so the zinc and steel weights were in much lower supply then. This photo was from about ten years ago when buckets of wheel weights were almost exclusively all lead. I dropped over five hundred ingots on this particular day.

Wheel Weights and Mixing With Alloyed Lead

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