Oldest Firearm I own. Queen Anne Turn Off Pistol

It was a frustrating day tinkering. I learned silver soldering is not as easy as it looks. Clean appears to be very very important. Temperature also. I was able to solder the guide in place and it appeared quite Stout after a couple of tries. I purchased the correct thread bolts in different lengths to use temporarily as a clamp screw and gave up trying to make one considering there is one very close available for purchase. Unfortunately I had gauged diameter and thread incorrectly. The trick was, that a bolt long enough will bottom out in apear to be quite solid. Thus I incorrectly judged the 10x24 as correct for both diameter and pitch. I'm pretty sure the pitch is correct but both old and new bolts 'wobble' in the thread if they are not bottomed out and move when clamped down on a flint.

The problem is that one has to use the top of the clamp screw to cock the rather stoudt hammer spring. If the clamp screw is solid there isn't a problem. But when the clamp screw can move the force needed to cock the hammer is transferred to the upper clamp that is held in position by guide (the one I just soldered in place). That rather considerable force on the 'wobbling' clamp screw is transferred through the upper clamp to the guide with enough force to break my rather meager attempts at silver soldering the guide back on. So I'm back to where I started yesterday. Broken guide and an illfitting clamp screw.

Being there is a suitable replacement clamp screw in 10x24, I wonder if there is a 10x24 heli-coil that i could install?

Answered my own question.

Turns out Track of the Wolf has the exact clamp screw in 12-24. I'm going to check the actual diameter pitch again the morning. Maybe 12-24 is correct.

Now I have a decision to make. The original clamp screw was approximately #10 in size. In reality it is neither #10 or #12 but somewhere in between. A #12 is 'relatively' much larger in size if. The portion of the cock (I sometimes have called it the hammer) where the thread is is not very thick just due to its size and configuration. If I drill and rethread to #12 size to fit the TOTW clamp screw I run the risk of weakening the cock by making it thinner at its thinnest point. Also, I learned that the guide has to be precisely aligned in relation to the clamp screw to avoid the upper clamp from transferring any force onto the guide. A # 12 clamp screw, by the nature of its diameter, may/will impact that alignment. So a property aligned #12 screw might contact a properly aligned guide. Consider that the clearances are tiny. I may be overthinking that but I don't want to ignore it either.

I can fill the existing threaded portion of the cock and drill/rethread to 10-24 without changing the relationship between the clamp screw and the guide. But that poses a complexity for assembly. The guide needs to be silver soldered in place requiring about 1400 degrees of temperature. To fill the hole with nickel silver requires a temperature of around 1200 degrees and the hole and the guide mounting are almost touching each other on the same piece. Consider i have a MAPP gas torch and dont have precise control of the temperature. That means i would need to silver solder the guide and fill the hole at the same time as either operation would melt/undo the other operation if done separately. In order to properly align the guide as it relates to the clamp screw, the clamp screw and upper clamp should be in place when the guide is attached. Something I can't do if I'm filling the clamp screw hole at the same time.

The simplest course of action would be to install a 10-24 heli-coil. I may or may not be required to drill out the existing threads depending on the actual dimeter of both the hole and thr heli-coil.

If I can keep to the concept of "Do no Harm" the next step is to see if i can install a 10-24 thread coil. No material has to be removed and it is within my mechanical ability. There isn't a coil on the shelf that I can find today. So I'll order one along with the corresponding clamp screw and continue when they arrive. As much as I want to do something today I think the wisest move is to proceed with the method that can do the least amount of damage. At 10-24 the replacement clamp screw will not be 100% accurate but I can live with that. Plus I may be able to find a professional that can safely add material to the original clamp screw and thread it to 10-24 and return to the original part, albeit repaired in a modern fashion, for a long term solution.

It sucks, I want so much to do it today but I'm afraid to do any damage that can't be repaired. A man's got to know his limitations.

I'll clean up and reinstall the guide today.

ThomasT said:

The Sta-Brite silver solder I recommended comes with the cleaner/flux in the kit. Brownells also sell SS with different silver contents that require different heat ranges. I would try the Heli Coil first. JB weld is supposed to be strong enough to drill and tap. But I don't know if it would hold up in your case. But its a thought.

Can you silver solder a close fitting screw in the threaded hole and then drill it and tap it? You would really need the steadiness of a mill to do that. Not every one has a Mill sitting around. If you did that braze the other part on first because the heat needed to silver solder shouldn't be high enough to melt the brazing.

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No mill and my Harbor Freight drill press will get me in the general vicinity. If the coil doesn't work, and i have no reason to believe it won't, I might be sending parts out for professional work. We'll cross that bridge when we gett to it. I'd give a lot for any one of the mini mills to be useful. But all I read is that they just aren't worth the cost.

PWC said:

I would bee real slow to drill a oversize hole in 250 yr old metal for a helicoil. Bugger up after market stuff, leave OEM as original as possible.

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Recall that the current thread is larger than #10 but smaller than #12. I'm hoping I won't have to drill anything out. But I won't know what to do with it until I have one in hand.

PWC said:

Do you have a thread gauge?

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No. I'd like to own a set of pin gauges but currently don't. Understand that I'm a 'Tinkerer ' not a gunsmith. There are a lot of tools I 'wish' I had.

Ketland was not a small gunmaker for their time. I'd bet the standards were well kept. What those standards were is a guess.

Joe Puleo wrote an article for Man at Arms magazine back in 2011 titied 'Ketland Guns in America' that provided a lot of information about Ketland. It also left a lot of questions and there isn't a difinative timeline for what was manufactured by whom and when. Mr. Puleo indicated he was working on a book about Ketland but I've not been able to find a reference to that book. As if it hasnt been witten/published. So all I have to go by is what I can read on the internet from various forums. I have logged the references and am trying o join one of the forums that Mr. Puleo belongs to to try and tie down a better understanding of the companies involvd. So the timeline below is at best 'conjecture'.

Thomas Ketland Sr. Was a Birmingham gunmaker in business in 1777. At some point, not defined yet, a partnership was formed with his son and zt least one other person. When the partnership was formed is unclear to me yet. I believe firearms made by the Sr. Thomas' partnership were marked 'Ketland & Co. Until 1800 when the origonal partnership was either modified or disolved. In 1800 firearms were marked W. Ketland & Co.

The original partnership didn't start exporting guns to america as a 'Trade' item until a out 1793 or so. That doesn't mean Ketland firearms didn't come to America before then. They certainly did. But the Queen Anne pistol this thread is about would have been made for the American trade. Thus it would not have been made prior to 1793 or so. And in 1800 the name would have changed to W. Ketland & Co. So, if the gathering of information is correct, the pistol in this thread is between 222 and 228 years old.

I'd dearly like to have a researched book to confirm those dates. But so far it doesn't exist. Two sons moved to Philadelphia and started a merchant company. There may also have been two Ketland companies, one in Birmingham and one in london.

The odd part about this pistol is that it has true London proofmarks. I'm no expert on proofmarks but Birmingham proof house didn't technically exist until 1813. But most guns manufactured in Birmingham had a crown over crossed septers very much like the eventual Birmingham proof mark. I read that Ketland guns were shipped to London for proofing but I'm unclear if they would have been proofed at the London proof house or a private proof house. This pistol was certainly proofed at the London proof house. I think private proof houses existed.

PWC said:

Is it possible to find after market "hammer" that you can modify to fit the pistol that will allow you to shoot while you continue to look for/repair the OEM parts?

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That is conceivable but I have not investigated it yet. There are aftermarket cocks available. Not sure there is one this small or has the right throw. Next step is to see if I can make a coil work without drilling any material out.

UPDATE: 10-24 Coil is supposed to be ready to pick up tonight. Barrel Key from Dixie Gunworks ordered. I ordered 2 of the 10-24 clamp screws from S&S. These don't match the original in style but the second copy is to see if I can modify one to have a screw driver slot. I also ordered one of the 12-24 clamp screws from Track of the Wolf as it matches the style of the original exactly but has a thread diameter I am not comfortable using. The thought here is I may be able to 'thin' out this one for a 10-24 thread. Man what I wouldn't give for a lathe at the house.

I spent last night cleaning the silver solder from the guide and cock. That isn't as easy as it sounds. I'll solder the guide on later this evening. If the 10-24 coil works without modifying the cock the pistol will be ready to shoot with a temporary clamp screw until the new clamp screws arrive. I'm hoping that the coil will actually 'thread' onto the existing threads in the cock without drilling out any material. If that works, even if I have to use epoxy to secure it, that is the repair I will settle on. If that doesn't work without drilling material out I will have to re-think the next course of action. Crossed fingers on the coil.

JN01 said:

You could thread the hole, fill it with a threaded rod, cut it off, smooth it to the contour, then cut a screwdriver slot on top.

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That's kinda what I was thinking. What I found out while trying to make a reproduction was that I dont have anything thin enough to cut an appropriately sized screwdriver slot. Maybe i can find a thinner hack saw blade but the one I have is too thick. Same with the Dremel cut off wheel.

Jim Watson said:

12-24 screw, nut, lapping compound until 11-24

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OOOOH. That is something I would have never thought of. You just lap until it fits the threads? Have you done it before?

Big Bore 44 said:

NO,NO, NO,NO Do not fill the threads with anything. Look up the BRITISH thread standards. The threads are probably Whitworth, different pitch, diameter, and angle. Please do a bit more research.

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Thank you very much. I had assumed that I was dealing with a lost standard. If I can stay true to the original I will and nothing will be cut or filled until this research is done. A brief search shows that BSW dies are available. Im going to need to map the threads on the inside so they can be measured. The bolt threads are too far gone to rely on measuring it. What I need is a 7/32 rod that is soft enough to take the impression of the threads. Maybe i can wrap an 1/8 or 3/16 rod with thin lead sheet to accomplish that task. Would wood work? Aluminum?