Things learned from concealed carry matches.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jeff White said:
I don’t know what it is in our culture that causes this but I’ve seen it too much in both the Army and in LE.
Click to expand...
As a father who raised two daughters, I'm quite familiar with AMS, and as I told my girls for years, American males don't typically retrieve their heads from their posteriors until they're in their mid to late thirties, if ever...

Back to the OP, most folks carry handguns that are convenient, yet shoot mostly at the range only those handguns that are "fun" to shoot. Rarely do the two practices coincide. I've been a certified law enforcement firearms instructor for years, and lately, all I can think about is how much I'm gonna be enjoying retirement next year...
 
Man I wish I could find courses like yours around me. Back when ammo was available I kept trying to compete with my carry guns but kept getting turned away. Even when I took a handgun class it was pulling teeth to get the instructor to let me run a couple drills with more than my duty sized gun just to see how I performed with the smaller carry guns. Getting anyone to really challenge themselves and take to heart their shortcomings is difficult no matter the situation, with guns egos get involved a bit more than normal for some reason.
 
Jeff White said:
You see it in people who go to the range and only practice the drill they have mastered and won’t even try anything else because they might be embarrassed.
Click to expand...

Great point! It's much easier to work on the stuff you already do well but it's hard to become a well rounded expert that way. I recall Chris Carter talking about this. He had some of the best hands in the history of the NFL but it's striking that he often talked about how he tried to spend most of his spare time practicing the things he felt he didn't do as well. That's why he's a Hall of Famer.
 
GEM said:
Taurus 85 in their pockets because it served them well (never testes except at the square range)
Click to expand...
OK, given the direction pocket guns may be pointed as you start the draw [emphasis added], that is one funny typo!

Craig
 
couldbeanyone said:
"I honestly wish IDPA would let BUG guys pocket holster so that real world let down could sink in for a lot of folks"


Yeah, it turns out pocket carry is not a winner. Some of the participants were really surprised how slow their draw was.
Click to expand...

Pocket holster carry is a compromise that involves an understandable awkwardness of access, which can be compounded by positional difficulty.

It can, however, allow for an unobtrusive and discreet grasp of the weapon, if awareness allows it to occur, which often isn't possible with belt carry methods (in public). This can help reduce the time needed for drawing and presentation, under the right circumstances, since grasping of the pocket-holstered weapon has already occurred. I think Mas did an article on this topic, using a timer, some years ago. Fast being fast because it's already in the hand, albeit unseen, might be helpful.

In other words, it's not a "fast draw" carry method, but it can be a carry method that allows for a fast presentation because it may be utilized so it skips the 'reach/find/get a grip' part of a normal draw & presentation from a belt or shoulder carry method. Like with any other carry method, though, it requires user care and prudence - and a proper holster - so the user doesn't unintentionally have their index finger find the trigger before its desired. Even more so since the weapon must be drawn through the mouth of a pocket, which might make things 'tighter'.

Yep, it's dismaying how some folks lawfully carrying concealed weapons (whether private citizens or off-duty LE) may put their emphasis on simple convenience and not being able to demonstrate their ability to actually handle and shoot smaller weapons. Often the very attributes that make small guns so attractive are the same attributes that make them harder to shoot well. A conundrum that requires dedicated practice and a willingness to keep up with it to the degree necessary to achieve and demonstrate competence.
 
Last edited:
I know everyone doesn’t have the privilege of having a range in your front yard, so this isn’t universally applicable but I personally didn’t realize how bad and how slow I was with my typical carry guns until I bought a shot timer just to play with.

I don’t know how I compare to others, but when I compare my ranges gun times to my carry gun times their is a substantial difference. Once ammo availability comes back I’ll definitely be practicing more with the carry gun.


Everyone would benefit from a shot timer, it doesn’t lie and makes you notice and therefore repeat improvements, even if you are your own competition.
 
alfsauve said:
I'm also putting a 1,000 rounds through my gun and competing in at least 6 IDPA matches before then.
Click to expand...

That's about $750 worth of 9x19 at this morning's average price plus shipping.

I guess I'll side with the unmotivated losers; that's several years' worth of ammo budget for me.
 
I would love to shoot my J-frame in a match like that. I have once or twice in IDPA but they don't let you run BUGs with moonclips, so I have to run Safariland Comp Is. My 442 is cut for moonclips and I would love to see how much better I could do, especially if I am running 38 Short Colt rather than 38 Special. Never going to be as fast and accurate as my N-frames with moonclips but I think I would have fun trying.
 
TRX said:
That's about $750 worth of 9x19 at this morning's average price plus shipping. .
Click to expand...

Actually I'm still reloading at ~$14/100. I always bought primers 10,000 a time to spread out the hazmat fee. Guess when I bought the last batch?

Also at USPSA LoCap Nationals sponsored by Federal, they sold match certified range ammo for $54/100. This was the Federal 150gr Syntech 9mm stuff. Competitors could buy up to 1,000 rounds. The match only required just short of 400. Guess who went home with 600 extra rounds? (Saving it for major matches.)

No, I'm not rich. Lucky? Yes. Shrewd? Yes. Economical? Yes.





[Okay there was a time, when I living on E3 pay, just married and just starting out reloading that I bought primers from the LGS 100 at a time. But I digress about 50 years.]
 
mcb said:
I would love to shoot my J-frame in a match like that. I have once or twice in IDPA but they don't let you run BUGs with moonclips, so I have to run Safariland Comp Is.
Click to expand...

IDPA has a Specialty division that many local matches will let you shoot. NFS, or Not For Score, but of course you're scored and entered into Practiscore anyway. It must of course be a safe gun, holster, and ammo. No shoulder rigs. No .44auto mag. Saw one guy shoot it with a silencer. It gives people a place to practice with their EDC. For these local matches I'm just declaring CCP, though that limits me to 8 rounds. I could either declare SSP and go with 10 rounds, or NFS and shoot the full 12 or 15.
 
Get a lot of this in IDPA. I shoot my carry stuff, and people are often BAFFLED by that, even to process like "where do I unload," or why I need to take the WML off, because not allowed in IDPA but... dude, I carry this.

Yes, also done a lot of NFS where I shoot a gun too real for a match to un-cheat.
 
All of the guys shooting 5 shot 38 specials performed VERY poorly. Their response to shooting poorly and fumbled reloads? "I ain't shooting that in the match again." ... yet you see them several times later and they're still carrying the 5 shot snubbies.
Click to expand...
Wrong lesson learned.
 
couldbeanyone said:
After observing people carrying small guns, and never seeming to practice with them, I decided to create concealed carry matches at our local range in an effort to get people to actually shoot what they carry. Really inspired by a young man who has since become a cop. He was always practicing with a 1911. I asked him what he carried. He pulled out a Springfield xds in 45 ACP. I asked him if he had ever tried shooting it fast. He said no. I suggested he give it a try. The results, at 7 yards, uspsa target, 6 rounds, 1 D zone hit, 5 misses.
The match was scored using uspsa scoring (hit factor) and was basically uspsa format, with the following changes: you must draw from concealment, your gun had to fit in a box sized to accept nothing larger than a Colt officer's model, no power factor, you could use anything from a 22 to a 45, and all stages were designed to be 5 shot friendly (5 shots and move, so people shooting 5 shot guns weren't forced to make standing reloads).
The turnout initially was very good. Had a lot of people show up with guns they had never considered shooting in a match including several 5 shot 38 specials, lcp, Smith bodyguard, etc. Most of the participants were people who were already at least casual competitive shooters. So these are people who generally shoot better than your average concealed carrier.
Lessons learned:
People don't like performing badly. All of the guys shooting 5 shot 38 specials performed VERY poorly. Their response to shooting poorly and fumbled reloads? "I ain't shooting that in the match again." later matches they shot with compact polymer autos. Glock 43 etc. They did better but still not great. You would think it would be motivation to practice and get better but, no... yet you see them several times later and they're still carrying the 5 shot snubbies.
No one came close to winning with a 45acp. Take that for what it's worth....
On average people shooting physically larger compact guns or smaller small caliber guns (22 lr, 32 ACP) performed better.
If you are truly a good shooter, you will probably do well with whatever....young man (single stack grand master and very high finisher at Nationals) shot a Kahr cm-9 and was always a top finisher. Another guy, ( limited master) shot a shield and always finished well. I shot a Airlite 8 shot revolver in 22lr and did well. Yes I carry it.
People hate to suck. Over the course of the year, general participation fell to the point that I quit having the matches. The guys who quit coming kept shooting their full size guns in other matches.
I will never understand the mindset of people that will continue to carry a gun that they have demonstrated that they can't perform with. You would think it would inspire them to either practice with the gun and continue to compete until they could perform, or switch to carrying a gun they could perform better with. But no......I just don't get it.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the post. There is certainly a lot of food for thought here. I’m going to have to do some honest self- appraisal. It’s been years since I shot in competition or under any stress at all.
 
Interesting thread. To qualify for a CCW in Ventura County, California you have to shoot 2 rounds in 5 seconds from concealed carry @ 3 yards, 2 rounds in 5 seconds @ 7 yards s, 2 rounds in 5 seconds @ 10 yards and 2 rounds in 10 seconds @ 15 yards and do it twice for all four stages (16 rounds) with no misses on an IPSIC target. Of course no range (of which we have very few) allow concealed carry competitions.
I try to go to our club range (where the range master allows me to practice CC) once a week and I do 2 to 4 cycles of the qualification requirements.....yes I reload and yes I reload full power factor. However ammo cost is not the issue.
In California, CCWs are only good for 2 years. You must reapply and the cost is $77 to the County and $165 to the 'County approved qualifying trainer' for a 4 hour class which includes a 16 round demonstration of your skills.
And if you add the cost of a "Lawyer insurance" policy (which you better have if you even flash a gun) you are talking about a minimum of $400 every two years. Welcome to California. LOL
 
One lesson, of a match such as this, is that one may want to re-think the wisdom of carrying “convenience guns.” Of course, as one reply already mentioned, many folks carry a gun as a form of talisman, rather than as an actual weapon.

Having said that, some folks, who train diligently, can make a J-Snub really sing.

On a parallel note, I attended a blade training seminar, circa 2004 or 2005, taught by Steve Tarani. Early in the class, he had each student step forward, and, in full view of everyone, perform a fast draw and presentation of their pocket folder. (I do not remember whether a timer was involved.) Just about everyone quickly learned that what was easy, while standing inside one’s home, with no pressure, was nothing like they could do when standing in front of an audience. Notably, for this exercise, there was nobody acting as an opponent. The pressure came from being in front of one’s fellow students.

IIRC, those who were carrying knives with the Emerson Wave feature were told no not use that feature, for the drill. The Wave starts the blade opening, by snagging the mouth of the pocket opening. Perhaps part of the lesson, for those used to the Wave, was that one does not always want the blade to loudly and immediately snap open as part of the draw stroke? (Personally, I do not favor tip-up carry, for a defensive blade, so have never favored the Wave.)
 
Kleanbore said:
I'm a-feared that there is a lot of that going around.
Click to expand...

I do not fear this. It is better, for me, if someone else gets eaten, first, providing the diversion that enables me to perform a flanking maneuver, and nail the bad guy. ;)

That is not really a joke. I recall a recent church shooting, where one unfortunate member, whether he was part of the “security detail,” or not, was eaten alive by the bad guy, which seemed to help provide the real hero with greater tactical latitude.
 
My main competition is 3-gun using a STI Marauder (full size 2011, 9mm) as my pistol. I've shot a couple of BUG matches and they are both fun and enlightening if one has the right attitude. My BUG match and CC gun is a Springfield Armory XDs in .45. Of course there is always adjustment necessary going from hip draw to appendix draw and grabbing a full sized 9mm to grabbing a small .45, but if one's fundamentals are sound, they should be on target. That ego sure can get in the way of making progress...
 
Last edited:
I follow KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) I have one pistol that I employ for concealed carry a S&W Shield 9X19MM. Should I carry two weapons together, the backup is a S&W M640 38Spl. I do not do the carry rotation theme. I have a firing range on the property thus we practice shooting from concealed carry with usual clothing attire/dress with singular or multiple humanoid targets which involves movement.
 
50% of the population has below average intelligence and a whole bunch of them are carrying!


Seriously, though, many people never really learned how to learn. They see failure as an emotional attack and not a valuable lesson for improvement.

Part of what causes this is poor schooling combined with terminal “the bestest”-itis. They have to have “the best” car, handbag, computer, and most importantly, be in first place. Such expressions of pettiness are expressions of ego. A person who cannot set aside ego will have difficulty learning.

Now for the best part: We used to be a culture that prioritized logic, intuition and feelings IN THAT ORDER. In 2021, the order is now feelings, intuition and logic. Add in ego and the “feels” dominate. There is no moving past until the “feels” allow it. I see so many people making decisions emotionally and it causes havoc. Just look at the past year for examples.

Bill Jordan wrote “No Second Place Winner.”. In it, he states he wouldn’t wish second place on his worst enemy. That is a rather profound statement given the above: he is overriding his emotional response to his enemy to acknowledge the true awfulness of ineffective performance. The culture of men demanded effectiveness at all times; merit was everything. The “feels” crowd offers a trophy to everyone to soothe the egos of the losers. Bill Jordan takes second place as failure not to be tolerated; soothing retards learning. This was when COMPETENCE was idolized, not ephemeral feelings of the moment. Merit demands logic and repudiates feelings. There can be no other way if logic dominates the culture.
 
fastbolt said:
It can, however, allow for an unobtrusive and discreet grasp of the weapon, if awareness allows it to occur, which often isn't possible with belt carry methods (in public). This can help reduce the time needed for drawing and presentation, under the right circumstances, since grasping of the pocket-holstered weapon has already occurred. I think Mas did an article on this topic, using a timer, some years ago. Fast being fast because it's already in the hand, albeit unseen, might be helpful.

In other words, it's not a "fast draw" carry method, but it can be a carry method that allows for a fast presentation because it may be utilized so it skips the 'reach/find/get a grip' part of a normal draw & presentation from a belt or shoulder carry method.
Click to expand...
I'd be interested to read that article if you can locate it. I did a bit of searching but was unable to dig it up.
 
bearcreek said:
I'd be interested to read that article if you can locate it. I did a bit of searching but was unable to dig it up.
Click to expand...

It's been quite a few years. As I recall, it was several years before I retired in '09. I don't know which magazine contained the article, but it may have been this one, reprinted in an earlier GD, which unfortunately is only available for e-purchase? Dunno.

The one I read contained his testing some timed draws from a pocket holster, compared to having to reach and draw from a belt holster. The advantage enjoyed by the pocket holster was being able to already have the gun's grip in hand. (Extra care would have to be taken so the index finger didn't "find" the trigger as the gripped gun was drawn through the pocket mouth.)

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/gun-digests-concealed-pocket-carry-eshort-massad-ayoob/1112405758
 
fastbolt said:
It's been quite a few years. As I recall, it was several years before I retired in '09. I don't know which magazine contained the article, but it may have been this one, reprinted in an earlier GD, which unfortunately is only available for e-purchase? Dunno.

The one I read contained his testing some timed draws from a pocket holster, compared to having to reach and draw from a belt holster. The advantage enjoyed by the pocket holster was being able to already have the gun's grip in hand. (Extra care would have to be taken so the index finger didn't "find" the trigger as the gripped gun was drawn through the pocket mouth.)

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/gun-digests-concealed-pocket-carry-eshort-massad-ayoob/1112405758
Click to expand...
Interesting. I've never seen any competent handgun shooter who was even remotely close to as fast from a pocket as they are from a belt holster, even starting the pocket draw with the hand on the gun. Speed isn't always everything though. Speed from a pocket varies widely depending on the pants too.... Anyway, if you do run across that article online somewhere, I'd be interested.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

P
  • Locked
Concealed Carry Considerations
2 3
Replies
58
Views
2K
easyg
easyg
J
  • Locked
I wanna mess with the squid
Replies
8
Views
907
Jeff White
J
V
  • Locked
How many people actually carry concealed?
2 3
Replies
59
Views
2K
Deltaboy1984
Deltaboy1984
B
  • Locked
Define "Good Enough"
2
Replies
32
Views
1K
Dan the Man
D
C
  • Locked
Things I have learned
Replies
16
Views
571
Shadow 7D
S
Back
Top