6.5 Creedmoor 130 grain ELD-M and 130 grain TGK load development

South Prairie Jim said:

Yes sir I did and good job as well' we are not the only ones to read and benefit your testing and research. These pages archive into the vast cyber world of misinformation lets make sure we contribute with information that moves the sport forward in a positive manner.

Again great job..
J

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Absolutely. That’s why I take the time to do this. I benefit greatly from others’ experiences. I get it.

However, it’s hard to convey tone like this and easy to assume the worst. When you say, “in a positive manner”, I almost take it as an insinuation that somehow I haven’t. I’ve tried to tactfully and patiently bear with commenters on forums like this.

It’s a challenge sometimes.

There’s always the guy who knows everything and assumes everyone else knows nothing. (That’s not you, I’m sure). I know they are trying to be helpful and I can probably benefit from their knowledge in some capacity. So, when you repeat something I already said as your own original thought, I just assume you inadvertently missed or misread something.

Walkalong said:

Nice work. To save bullets and barrel life I do three shots each in initial work up. Sometimes one each to figure initial velocities.

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Yeah, I did 3 shot groups with the higher Varget charges. It was informative enough I guess. I suspect it is more effective for people who are better shooters than me. I’m afraid sometimes that even 5 rounds isn’t enough of a sample to allow for the variable of my inconsistent shooting. If I was so consistent that I could be confident that I wasn’t skewing the results I think I would primarily use 3-round groups for workup instead of 5. It certainly would be cheaper and easier on the barrel!

South Prairie Jim said:

Sorry ' you right that sounded weird.. Not really what I meant , nor directed toward you rather myself( I should have used I instead of we.) and. sorry I probably did miss your earlier post due to old guy syndrome.

Getting old sucks
J

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No worries at all!

Walkalong said:

Three shots each, testing new lot of RL-15, so I had a good idea where I needed to be.

I added in one charge weight in Alpha cases vs the Lapua fire formed 6 BR cases.

This was Test #1, but also did a #2 & a #3. Test # 3 was five shots per.
32.3 in Lapua cases is where I ended up, had been using 32.0 of the old lot #.
Will be 32.2 in Alpha cases.
View attachment 1004940 View attachment 1004941 View attachment 1004942

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Nice. See, 3 rounds is plenty when you can shoot. Wait ‘til you see this next post. Not great.

UPDATE:

130 grain Sierra Tipped Game King “game changers”

I was able to sneak off and shoot a quick proof test this afternoon (without a chronograph). The results were great, my shooting wasn’t.

Anyway…..

The 130 grain ELD-M shot best (so far) with a charge of 43.3 - 43.5 grains of VV N160 seated to 2.8325 or .0275 off lands.

I loaded 5 rounds each at 43.0, 43.2, 43.4, 43.6, and 43.8 at 2.8485 (.0275 off lands).

The good news: The rounds grouped similarly with the TGK as they did with the ELD-M of the same weight.

The bad news: I was shooting at a new (to me) range. I never got comfortable. The height of my chair compared to the bench was weird. The bench was slick. I was never really stable and shot like it.

Still, I think the group shapes’ similarity between bullets was enough info. They also had very similar POI so velocity will be similar. I think I’ll be able to use a very similar charge with both. I may need to tune seating depth a bit or shoot better. I can’t tell which right now.

* On a positive note, my gun seems to like Hornady’s factory “Precision Hunter” 143 grain ELD-X load okay. I used one for fouling and shot two more just to make a group. Not bad.

The place I shot at yesterday actually had H4350 on the shelf. I bought 2 lbs. That gives me almost 4 lbs. I feel rich.

I’m gonna wait to load any more TGK until I shoot the H4350 and N555 ELD tests.

I’m not gonna lie. I’m rooting for Hodgdon.

South Prairie Jim said:

@Joe Texas

(Sorry again for yesterdays lack of comprehension, no excuse ' but I was in and out of a motel and back and forth to the range all weekend so many things slipped through the cracks so to speak.)

I always appreciate someone taking the time and resources to test and post results so we may all
learn.
Thx again
J

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No worries and no apology needed. Thanks for your willingness to engage and help out.

Ok. My OCD is kicking in big time. Correct my thinking if I am wrong

• 43.4 is known good charge of VV N160 with 130 ELD-M.
• 130 TGK seemed to group identically in shape and POI even though they were bigger due to my lack of stability at the bench.
• The ELD/VLD are reported to be a challenge to tune and sometimes prefer a longer jump than one would expect.
• ELD measures .055 shorter than TGK. COAL with each bullet touching lands is actually only .026 different when measured with Hornady OAL gauge.
• I know, CBTO is better measurement.
• Ogive obviously is located in a different place on the red bullet compared to the green bullet.
• Every Sierra bullet I’ve ever shot in 3 different barrels (stock Savage .223, .308, Shilen Select Match .223) did well with .020 jump. Doesn’t mean .264 bullet will, right?
• 130 ELD-M liked .0325 jump. Doesn’t mean Sierra TGK will, right?
• A seating depth test makes sense with a new projectile, right?
• If I measured CBTO, would the rifle probably like THAT same measurement for both bullets regardless of what COAL turned out to be?

Real questions. I don’t know. Please somebody teach me.

Blue68f100 said:

The only way to know is it load some and test. It's the ogive distance to lands that counts most of the time. But a large difference impacts the pressure curve.

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Yeah, I ended up loading a test of 5 each in .005 increments from .005 off to .050 off. I hope to shoot it today over a chronograph to monitor pressure and from a stable position to evaluate accuracy.

I’m 98% sure that the powder charge translates from the ELD to the TGK. I suspect I’ll find it likes the same ogive to lands jump as well. Yet another reason to move away from COAL as my primary way of measuring and expressing jump. It’s past time for me to listen, learn, and level up in that area.

Either way, I’ll know what it likes shortly and I’ll learn something. Gonna order the Sinclair thingy that Walkalong shared the pic of.

Update: TGK seating test

130 grain Sierra Tipped Game King
VV N160
Hornady brass 1.91”
CCI 200 LR primers
I think my barrel “likes” these about .0275 off. Actually, I’m not sure my barrel likes ‘em that much at all. Can’t blame the shooting today. I did okay. Not a fan of CCI 200 primers. Maybe Fed 210M would tighten ‘em up, idk.

South Prairie Jim said:

View attachment 1005622
Just curious as to why you suspect that a VLD bullet with a Secant ogive would tune the same as a Tangent ogive bullet ?

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Hmm. I thought I read (and observed by looking?) that these “game changers” had a similar ogive to the elds. I’ll have to look into that. Regardless, I found the best seating depth for each bullet by testing.

* Well, I learned something, Jim. The Sierra Match Kings do in fact have a tangent ogive. The Game Changer TGKs appear to have sort of a hybrid ogive. It’s not quite a pure tangent but not exactly a full on secant.

Blue68f100 said:

I never had anything with Hornady bullets loads transfer to Sierra bullets. The cores and jackets are so very different. Now I have found that the certain SMK and SGK use the same load. A lot of the newer tipped ones do not, unless you trying some of the newer Game kings..

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Yes, these are the new .264 130 grain “Game Changers” I am comparing to 130 grain ELDs in load development.

I’ve only used one other Hornady bullet, the .224 73 grain ELD. It used a similar charge as my legit 1/2 MOA 69 grain SGK load. My .223 load for 69 SMK is .2 grains less than the 69 TMK. They both easily hold less than 1” @ 200. I have some 130 grain TMKs on the way. That’ll be 3 different bullets to compare and learn from.

My preference would have been for .264 SMKs to be easily available.

Still, the difference between these two (TGK/ELD) isn’t so obvious to me I guess. I didn’t see the ogive type of the TGK mentioned on Sierra’s website. They call it a “tuned” ogive.

Anyway, the TGK and ELD seemed to prefer the same charge weight of Varget and N160. The seating depth was obviously different. I guess when I am able to accurately measure CBTO I’ll know for sure. I was just wondering if the jump when expressed in CBTO would be similar.

H4350 test

130 grain ELD-M
Hornady brass trimmed to 1.906
Fed 210M LR primers
2.8325 COAL

41.9 grains
Velocity - 2833 fps
Standard Deviation - 6
5 round group size - .75”

42.1 - 2833, 9, .6875”
42.3 - 2855, 9, .625”
42.5 - 2862, 5, .6875”
42.7 - 2874, 7, 1.25”
42.9 - 2893, 14, 1.4375”
43.1 - 2904, 13, .8125”
43,3 - 2914, 16, 1.3125”
43.5 - 2936, 14, .875”
43.7 - 2942, 13, 1.0625”

I’m thinking 42.2 - 42.4 might be okay? Not super thrilled with size of groups but velocity wasn’t bad.

South Prairie Jim said:

Why wouldn't you look at 42.0 gr as stable seeings as how you had the benefit of the chrono displaying the exact same speed on each side of it ?

Just curious and trying to learn.

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You know, that’s a really good point.

I don’t know why I dismissed that.

Maybe ‘cause of the higher velocity further up I overlooked it?

Maybe because the POIs started to flatten across 42.1-42.5 ?

I think it’s because the smallest group size was at 43.3 sandwiched between two of the smaller groups of the test. I still forget sometimes that a single 5 round group’s size doesn’t mean as much as we think.

After looking at it again, I’m pretty sure that’s a better option. 42.1 also had almost zero vertical stringing You are absolutely right. I’m glad I didn’t load any at 42.3.

I’m gonna give up the extra 25 fps and go with 42.0 for 200 yard testing.

Thanks Jim!

Tomorrow’s test:
130 grain Tipped Game Kings/H4350
5 each @ 41-9 - 42.7 in .2 increments

130 grain ELD-M over 42.0 H4350 X 5 (thanks again, Jim!)

That only leaves the VV N555 test to shoot + its companion TGK test before moving to 200 yards with the winners.

So far, the ELD over 43.4 N160 is the only real standout @ 100. I’m still rooting for the H4350 load ‘cause I have almost 4# of it.