Midway Surplus M1 Carbine

I am finding out more about this carbine, Winchester Dogleg hammer and Winchester Trigger Housing

Ben Cartwright SASS said:

I am just learning about M1's here is my Quality Hardware (VG-F) box came through fine, no dents or tears. Seems to be in very nice shape, just a tad of cosmoline under the top handguard and in it.
Serial # 156XXXX
Quality Hardware under adjustable sight
....

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My one and only carbine is a Quality Hardware as well. Excellent little rifle.

Don't know if youa re aware, but Quality Hardware only produced one part, the receiver, and assembled all of their guns using parts from other manufacturers.

Yes I learned that from reading threads. I like it and like the look of it

Since Midway has apparently sold all their catch of carbines, I will take time out & go back to the historic photo of MalcomX armed in self defense against threats from the Nation of Islam.

The practice of taping two 30 rd magazines side by side by the bottom thirds "flipper"style creates an overly long arrangement in my not so humble opinion. I briefly experimented with two spare 30 rd magazines.

Even then, the arrangement is long and heavy, defeating the design intent of the Carbine: a personal defense weapon more effective than a sidearm but half the weight of a rifle.

I haven't found any 30 round mags, including Korean, that are 100% reliable. I have surplus and Korean 15 round mags that are. Additionally, the balance just doesn't feel right, to me at least, with a 30 round mag.

On the note about Quality Hardware making only the receivers of their carbines.

The dozen official Carbine manufacturers were responsible for assembly and test of their Carbines, but parts not only came from other Carbine manufacturers, but minor parts were sub contracted to other arms manufacturers not just the officially contracted Carbine makers whose names were stamped on serial numbered receivers. Plus if one Carbine maker was temporarily short of some parts, other Carbine manufacturers would send them their spares. Carbine manufacture was a massive team effort, and all Carbine manufacturers were on the same team.

I seriously doubt if a pure bred M1 Carbine could be found in the wild today.

I think the original Carbine design intent was a light rifle firing the .30 Winchester Self Loading cartridge with a loaded twenty round magazine and web sling matching the weight of a 1911A1 pistol with web pistol belt, leather holster, magazine pouch and three magazines loaded with seven rounds of. 45ACP. Five pounds approximate.

Carl N. Brown said:

I think the original Carbine design intent was a light rifle firing the .30 Winchester Self Loading cartridge with a loaded twenty round magazine and web sling matching the weight of a 1911A1 pistol with web pistol belt, leather holster, magazine pouch and three magazines loaded with seven rounds of. 45ACP. Five pounds approximate.

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Do you have any proof for that? In all my research through War Baby and just about every other document on the development of the carbine, that is the first claim like that I've personally every seen.

If I had proof positive, I would have said "I know" not "I think" and would have cited an authoritative source.
By what Wikipedia editors condemn as "synthesis" (surmise from personal research) I have come to believe so from my reads of the history of the light rifle project.

Copying from Larry Ruth, "M1 Carbine: Design, Development & Production":

OFFICE OF THE CHIEF OF INFANTRY
WASHINGTON
CI 474/9581-B
OO 474/3991 March 25, 1938
Subject: Weapons and Ammunition Carriers
To: The Chief of Ordnance

1. The number of team-operated weapons (.50 Caliber Machine Guns, 60mm Mortars, 81mm Mortars, 37mm Antitank Guns) in the proposed Infantry regiment has increased to the point were approximately one-sixth of the combat personnel of the regiment will be engaged in carrying ammunition. The question of armament of these ammunition carriers becomes one of great importance. A serious situation will be created if these men are bought into the close-range zone without an effective weapon for close combat. At the present time the only practical weapon available for the purpose is the pistol ....

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[Point 2 summarizes Infantry Board Report No. 985 on tests "with low caliber rifles and with the pistol and revolver with shoulder holster" finding these alternates inadequate and justifying the development of a special weapon.]

3. The maximum load that a man can carry and retain the necessary mobility to perform duties as an ammunition carrier, is about 45 pounds. His personal equipment (gas mask, mess gear, steel helmet, shovel, toilet articles), which is always present on the soldier, irrespective of his assignment, weighs approximately 15 pounds. This leaves about 30 pounds that can be utilized for ammunition load and personal weapon. The weight for the ammunition that he carries for the various weapons he will serve will average 25 pounds in the forward areas. Accordingly the total weight of the weapon with which he is armed and a limited amount of ammunition for that weapon cannot exceed five pounds in weight.

4. The Chief of Infantry considers that the type of weapon required for ammunition carriers is one fulfilling the following general characteristics;
a. Weight (Weapon and 20 rounds ammunition)--not to exceed five pounds.
b. Range--effective at 300 yards.
c. Magazine Fed.
d. Operation -- Automatic, desirable; semiautomatic essential.
e. Method of carrying -- Over shoulder with sling.
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This led eventually to the development of the Carbine Caliber .30 M1

My surmise is that the weight of the special weapon specified as an alternate to the pistol for men who were not infantry riflemen was set at five pounds for weapon with 20 rounds because that is the weight of a .45 pistol in military holster on web belt with two magazine pouch and total of three loaded 7 rd magazines.

I'm not sure it's possible to build a M1 carbine as light in weight as a 1911 handgun. I think they got the carbine as light and compact as possible with the technology they had 80 years ago.

I haven’t had so hard a time with 30’s as some:



I’ve a stash of new old stock SEY hardback style genuine mid 40’s USGI’s that have functioned flawless in many hundreds of shots fired. The trick is to load them to 25, though the few times I’ve loaded 30, they function just fine.

As for balance, I have personally found a loaded 30 to balance nearly as well in the rifle as a 15. It does not add too much weight and the center of gravity does not shift and the gun just handles perfectly fine. Now what WILL wreck the handling of the carbine is the common stock pouch trick. Having twin loaded 15s on the ass end of the gun off center from bore line makes for a surprisingly awkward handling setup. Looks cool but ruins the carbines biggest feature: handiness.

When carrying an M1 carbine as a camp gun, trail companion, etc. my favorite configuration is just the gun with only a sling and oiler and 15 round magazine loaded with soft points, and two spare 15’s on my left hip carried in a GI pouch, also loaded with soft points.

Soft points and hollow points turn the carbine into a wicked stopper at close range. Just research Jim Cirillo if you don’t believe me. And unlike a handgun, it can accurately reach out to 200-300 yards on a man sized target.

The guns carry ridiculously nicely in this configuration and I feel the firepower is excellent for the size and weight, making the carbine probably my all time favorite general purpose trail rifle.

Carl N. Brown said:

I think the original Carbine design intent was a light rifle firing the .30 Winchester Self Loading cartridge

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The histories vary based on the author and the time written and the source most used.

Ordnance wanted a replacement for the side arm. They also wanted a "second echelon" arm to ease the need for primary weapons for "in contact" troops. So, they really wanted a Personal Defense Weapon, before the notion of a PDW had really gelled.

Curiously, they developed the cartridge specification first. Whether they realized they were asking for a form of the .30wsl is unclear (much like how the .30pedersen was really the .32 french long).

Now, War Department did send out all sorts of RFP for belt holsters and the like for a weapon not yet designed, too. The intention to utterly replaces issued handguns is pretty clear.

Now, the fact that GIs just loved having a "light rifle" is as obvious as all the photos. Whether Ordnance intended to have a "light rifle" rather than a PDW is probably only conjecture at this point. All of the paperwork from 1942-1943 certainly suggests PDW over light rifle.

They were able to "pivot" to light rifle use by 1944 with little enough effort. If with little or no explanation, which is probably what fuels the modern consternation today.

"We" accept the notion of an infantry force equipped with an "intermediate" round and a ±300m range as "normal" today. Ordnance was still fully wed to a "battle rifle" with an 800+m range (such ranges are easier to contemplate with 8x8 or 10x10 foot targets, rather than IPSC-sized ones trying to be concealed.

Reality and largess put paid to such things. "Hey, Sarge, lookit, bad guys over yonder about 800m." Sarge could have Pvt Deadeye snipe at those people, or ask Weapons Platoon to send them .50bmg or mortar rounds. Not a complicated decision in that context.

Tommygunn said:

I'm not sure it's possible to build a M1 carbine as light in weight as a 1911 handgun. I think they got the carbine as light and compact as possible with the technology they had 80 years ago.

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My 1911 pistol, leather USN holster, web pistol belt, two magazine pouch and three loaded 7 rd magazines weigh over five pounds.
It is possible to build a M1 carbine with skinny barrel band, original slim stock, L sight, web sling, and loaded 15 rd magazine slightly under six pounds.
It is also possible to build a M1 carbine with wide barrel band with bayonet lug, fat M2 stock, adjustable sights, and start pushing it toward seven pounds.

I finally got to shoot my Winchester. It is suprisingly accurate. I shot it at the 50 yard line and it grouped nicely. I'm very happy with it. I ordered a repro sling, oiler and mag pouch.

Carl N. Brown said:

My 1911 pistol, leather USN holster, web pistol belt, two magazine pouch and three loaded 7 rd magazines weigh over five pounds.
It is possible to build a M1 carbine with skinny barrel band, original slim stock, L sight, web sling, and loaded 15 rd magazine slightly under six pounds.
It is also possible to build a M1 carbine with wide barrel band with bayonet lug, fat M2 stock, adjustable sights, and start pushing it toward seven pounds.

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I daresay it’s easier to carry a 6-7 pound M1 carbine slung over your shoulder (and probably often set down nearby against a tree, or next to you on the truck seat) compared to a full 1911 rig weighing down your belt all day. And the carbine would be a lot more effective in a fight if the Jerries suddenly show up at your motor pool, field kitchen, etc.

Mosin77 said:

I daresay it’s easier to carry a 6-7 pound M1 carbine slung over your shoulder (and probably often set down nearby against a tree, or next to you on the truck seat) compared to a full 1911 rig weighing down your belt all day. And the carbine would be a lot more effective in a fight if the Jerries suddenly show up at your motor pool, field kitchen, etc.

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Those Blitzkreiging Jerries were prone to dat just dropping in unannounced, no manners at all.

General Overview of the History of the U.S. Carbines, Caliber .30

"Accordingly, on October 1, 1940 the Ordnance Department published a circular which was in effect an appeal to known gun manufacturers and inventors to submit a gun with the following general characteristics:"

• Weight not to exceed 5 pounds

• Range effective up to 300 yards, semi-automatic fire essential, full automatic fire desirable

• To be carried by sling or some comparable device

• Chambered for a cartridge of caliber .30 of the Winchester self-loading type with a case
  similar to that of the commercial Winchester self-loading cartridge, caliber .32

35W

35 Whelen said:

General Overview of the History of the U.S. Carbines, Caliber .30

"Accordingly, on October 1, 1940 the Ordnance Department published a circular which was in effect an appeal to known gun manufacturers and inventors to submit a gun with the following general characteristics:"

• Weight not to exceed 5 pounds

• Range effective up to 300 yards, semi-automatic fire essential, full automatic fire desirable

• To be carried by sling or some comparable device

• Chambered for a cartridge of caliber .30 of the Winchester self-loading type with a case
  similar to that of the commercial Winchester self-loading cartridge, caliber .32

35W

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Thankfully, they weren't full auto from the start, in that case they rarely would have made it to civilian hands.

Since they eventually developed a drop in full auto kit that could be added to any Carbine, while some were specifically marked M-2, and thus could never be anything but full auto in the ATF's minds, many were just regular M-1's with the kit, easy removed,

Speedo66 said:

Thankfully, they weren't full auto from the start, in that case they rarely would have made it to civilian hands.

Since they eventually developed a drop in full auto kit that could be added to any Carbine, while some were specifically marked M-2, and thus could never be anything but full auto in the ATF's minds, many were just regular M-1's with the kit, easy removed,

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With that capability, Ive never understood how the ATF ever allowed them to be left out of the NFA. Same goes for things like the HK 90 series guns.

Yet they ban things they deemed "easily converted", like some of the open bolt guns, when things like the carbine and HK's are easily done, and with no, or very little modification.

Ahh, Land of the Free, and Home of the Brave...., as long as you follow their silly and arbitrary rules.

trackskippy said:

With that capability, Ive never understood how the ATF ever allowed them to be left out of the NFA. Same goes for things like the HK 90 series guns.

Yet they ban things they deemed "easily converted", like some of the open bolt guns, when things like the carbine and HK's are easily done, and with no, or very little modification.

Ahh, Land of the Free, and Home of the Brave...., as long as you follow their silly and arbitrary rules.

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SSSSHHHHHH don’t give them any idea dood.

JCooperfan1911 said:

SSSSHHHHHH don’t give them any idea dood.

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I think its a little late for that.

They do what they want, when they want, and everyone seems to be so afraid of them, which is exactly what they want. Just like the IRS, who were their twins there for a while.

I just have to say I am loving my carbine. I get IT now.
I added the customary (repro) stock mag pouch, sling and oiler and carry bag purchased from Word War Supply.

I am a bit concerned I may become a "M1 Carbine hoarder guy".
My Lee 100 grain 2 hole mold got delivered today so I am planning on breaking it in after dinner tomorrow night. Here is a pic of it with the canvas added.

I remember looking forward to Friday night for "other" activities.

Now I am looking forward to Friday night to try out a new mold.

hmm.......

DukeConnor said:

I just have to say I am loving my carbine. I get IT now.
I added the customary (repro) stock mag pouch, sling and oiler and carry bag purchased from Word War Supply.

I am a bit concerned I may become a "M1 Carbine hoarder guy".
My Lee 100 grain 2 hole mold got delivered today so I am planning on breaking it in after dinner tomorrow night. Here is a pic of it with the canvas added.

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We think alike! I am waiting on the same things to arrive!

In my experience, the two "End all, Be all" molds for the .30 Carbine (IF you can find them!!). They both cast marvelously accurate bullets-

The RCBS 30-115-SP



and the Lyman 311576





The Speer 110gr. HP Varminter is also a good one, although I find reforming their noses with a top punch makes them feed much better.



35W