JBTs, No-Knock, Drugs, A Rant

Just a quick FYI

Nevada has already voted on whether or not to legalize pot. This must be accopmlished via a constitutional amendment in NV. The voters of NV shot down the proposal 61% to 39%. Many of the campaigns against resorted to pointing out that many of our criminals are locked up for drug related crimes. They never made too much of a mention as to how much it costs or how miniscule the crime was compared to the punishment. If you haven't read "Reefer Madness" by Eric Schlosser, I suggest you do...right now!

You can look at the whole Nevada legalization story and get a massive amount of information with a simple Google search. It is scheduled to come up for a vote again in 2006 (this time with some changes to appease the fence-riders) provided the petition got enough signatures. I will be voting for legalization again. Just so you know, Nevada is a fairly conservative state usually made up of older republicans and fairly coservative Democrats. There is a new wave of libertarian-minded voters (of which I am a part) who just don't seem to know that the Libertarian party exists.
I agree with the legalization of pot and will be voting for it again.

Art Eatman

What got me to thinking about the total package of all this stuff was a cite in the No-Knock thread that in some two years in NYC, over 12,000 drug-search warrants were issued. 12,000! Warrants

Okay, go ahead, as Paul Harvey says, and tell us the rest of the story. Out of those 12,000, how many were the wrong address like we always hear about?

And, I know when I personally will declare the War on Drugs a failure, when the first one of my kids becomes a junkie, or OD's or is killed or injured by some junkie.

Out of those 12,000, how many were the wrong address like we always hear about?

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I don't think that's the point. The point, to me, anyway, is the sheer number -- the activity of the War on Some-Drugs. Of course, NYC is a big place with lots of LEOs and prosecutors, so one would expect large numbers...

But, 6,000 per year? That's 24 warrants per business day, everyday, (excluding 10 holidays per year).

That's a lot of bidness for the NYC-based Drug Warriors who are living on generous salaries and looking forward to comfortable retirement benefits.

Nice work if you can get it.

Rick

When evaluating the War on Drugs, one has to ask whether the country's drug "problem" has grown better or worse since the time when one could buy cocaine at the local drugstore.

It's easier for kids to get drugs than booze, this is just one of the many reasons to declare this "war" as an utter failure. The very notion of banning a weed is ludicrous (especially when some of those enforcing the laws cannot identify the substance).

DMFThe fact of the matter is that people have had their money or property seized and never been convicted of a crime.

"In Louisiana, police seized $48,000 from Gilberto Leone, a restaurant owner, after stopping him for traveling 7 mph over the speed limit. A drug dog alerted on the money he was carrying. Since then studies have shown that much of the cash in circulation in the U.S. has traces of cocaine on it. Leone sued and eventually 80 percent of his money was returned but the state still kept nearly $10,000." - Bad Law

For more interesting cases:Reforming Property Forfeiture Laws to Protect Citizens' Rights

Simply by making two simple reforms, the amount of forfeiture cases would be greatly reduced.
1. Any person subject to a forfeiture must be charged with the subject crime within 10 working days. If not convicted, the assests must be returned free of charge within 5 days. The subject will also receive reimbursment for any physical damages to the property or income lost due to the forfeiture.
2. No LE agency will be allowed to profit in any way from a forfeiture.

wilderbill said:

I am pretty sure that anybody that wants to kick in someone's door because they might be getting a buzz has a much more serious problem than the poor shmuck on the other side of that door.

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Well put , sir!

Just so you know, Nevada is a fairly conservative state usually made up of older republicans and fairly coservative Democrats. There is a new wave of libertarian-minded voters (of which I am a part) who just don't seem to know that the Libertarian party exists.

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I had gotten the impression that the far west, with the exception of the continental west coast, was conservative with a much more libertarian, anti-big-government streak than the old south. Is that your impression? I think if I could stand the cold winters Alaska, Montana, Idaho or Wyoming would be in my future. If I could stand the short trees and the arid climate Arizona or Nevada.

Art,

That's just how the real Tiberius raised personal funds as well. By having four of his cohorts in the Senate testify to "treasonous" acts of a selected wealthy noble, said noble could then be executed and his wealth confiscated.....with shares going to the "witnesses" and Emperor of course. An effective method of raising money while eliminating one's enemies. ....I wouldn't put it past some of our current "nobles" either....very sad.

I have no idea if the law is still in effect or not, but a few years ago the Louisiana legislature set up a system for divvying up "arrested money":

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Was that the John Stossel piece you saw? Where the people joked that in Louisiana there was a specific charge for DWM, "driving while Mexican"? I'm all too aware that that goes on in Texas too, specifically with the Dallas police department's recent 'fake drug scandal' (run that through google if you're interested), lest anybody think I'm self -rightous about my home state.

Stand_Watie,

I don't know...there sure are some good people in NM, but as collective, they don't seem to be too conservative. They went for Gore in 2000 and Bill Richardson sheltered our fleeing Democtratic Senators when they didn't wan to vote on redistricting.

Tiberius

I don't consider New Mexico or Colorado part of the far west...not because they're not, geographically speaking, but because they have so many California retirees.

Still, tall trees, mountains, moderate climate...Just an einsy shift in political climate in either state and it would be "doable"

p.s. I just noticed your location. Ouch. Illinois from Texas is a real kick in the groin - Especially if you're in outlying "heartland" Illinois, the insult of having your vote negated by Chicago must be heartbreaking. I put up with that for ten years in Michigan, enough was enough.

Yeah, I had forgotten about the Dallas fake drug stuff.
How easy would it be to bust someone because you could seize their assets, hand over fake drugs, then just shrug and keep the profits from it when they turn out not to be drugs al all?

Don't bother trying to explain away the theory behind that after it has already been done.

Drugs are a poison ruining America. I'm glad to see that President Bush, together with President Fox of Mexico is waging war on these terrible substances. They should use every tool in the law enforcement arsenal to combat this problem; including no knock warrants. So what if occassionaly something goes wrong and they burst into the wrong house - probably with a little bit of looking that person can be found guilty of some crime.

rick_reno:

Please tell me that you are joking.

Sawdust

I hope it was a joke as well....I agree drugs are a poison, and must be stamped out, but innocent lives are not a fair price to pay. Mistakes are made, but they cannot be trivialized.

Please tell me that you are joking.

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Yeah, I'm joking - I'm simply playing the role of government. That's the answer I expect we'd get if we could ask Ashcroft or Bush about this subject.

Again: I'm more interested in alternative solutions to the methodology of the war on drugs than opinions about drugs themselves.

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-Art

Okay - so those of you that know more about history than I , have traveled about or live in such countries - How well do / did the Opium Dens work?

Folks are gonna do , what they are gonna do - no matter if there is a law. Folks get involved with things for profit, for societal acceptance and they become addicted to it. Drugs , Sports, Sex, Gambling...etc. If a Law says "NO" some just want to rebel.

What if a Private Enterprise set up Opium Dens. Now if some folks want to give up some liberties - for freedom , that is their business. Folks wanting to give away MY liberties so they can have some freedoms - is another.

These folks give up liberties , to have the freedom to use whatever they want. Perhaps the societal acceptance loses its lure. With less / or little gummit meddllin, the rebellious nature is calmed down. Since the profits are not there for dealers, and dealers cannot manipulate the clientle, they find another venue.

Like many "vocations" it will not go away, it will be diminished. Folks still make moonshine, just the gummit has better things to do - other big money to go after.

These folks sign up for "Club Med" and part of the deal is , the rest of us don't pick up the tab.

Illicit use of stuff will never go away. The monies derived from providing something hard to obtain will never cease. That is just life. The only person that can change a person - is that person changing himself.

He decides he wants to come back to the fold of society , he gives up the liberties of the Club Med for the freedoms of the real world.

Folks do all sorts of stuff to escape reality. Drink, drug,whores, gamble, Internet....

Folks talk of Free Markets. Talk of Private Business doing what the guimmit does, and doing it better.

My problem with gummit is gummit meddlin". Oh - and creating a market for something gummit has to "qualify" or "rationlize" a need for.

Kinda reminds me of kids. They want to stay up late on a school night. They rebel because the parents say no. Peer pressure ( societal acceptance) they "have to stay up". Let the kid stay up. Wake that kid up and off to school they go. They get in trouble for sleeping - they made that choice let them deal with consequences. Don't let them take a nap , make 'em continue the regualr schedule.

It may take only one night or more. I won't take long for a kid of 7 - 13 yers of age to realize - this staying up won't work.

The parents did not have to be JBT's either. Parents can better use the saved resources of fussing, yelling, and grounding kids - for more important matters.

Here's an idea: "Dope Motel"

If you wanted to "self-medicate" with the substance of your choice, you go check yourself into the "Dope Motel". You pay upfront for the room, the deposit, and the dope of your choice. You sign a waiver and surrender your car keys until you sober up. And then you go to your room and party like it's 1999! The price would also include the cost of having full-time security and paramedics on site, just in case.

Any suggestions as to any other terms & conditions required to make this a workable plan?

Ill be waiting out front for the first one to stagger out...and they can go to the county motel.....it will be like a mini-vacation...if they are very lucky, maybe they can win an all inclusive trip to the state motel..

In my hypothetical scenario,

"Dope" would be legal and there would be no need for you or any other Drug Warrior to be standing out front to arrest anybody. You would be freed up to catch real criminals. (Say, you're not addicted to the 'easy busts', are you?)

Oh, and the "Dope Motel" would be in a fairly remote location, so just in case any of the partygoers did stagger out of their rooms, they wouldn't be able to easy damage themselves or anyone else.

In case there was any doubt, I for one think the War on Some Drugs is highly overrated, and suggest we find a better solution than the present-day scenario. You don't have to like my idea, you're welcome to come up with your own.

Cheers.

firearms_instructor:

Actually, your idea is very similar to that of Timothy Leary, who advocated creating safe environments so that a drug experimenter could be guided by trusted and experienced guides in what he considered a psychologically valuable experience. In his scheme, the psychedelic experience depends on -- uh, I forget, but 2 of the elements were "Set" and "Setting", the former being the mental preperation and expectations of the user and the latter being the environment.

Well, it may sound wacky, but it makes a lot more sense than the current plan, in which the user either gets set loose on the public, or locked up for years.

Ya know, that might work....

Think of it in this fashion. The "Dope Motel" would be akin to what I hear to be the practice of some Amish to permit their offspring a period of 'Indulgence' to sample the World before they decide to commit to the comminity and lifestyle of the Amish. It would be a venue where in the youth could experiment and learn of the hazards and rewards of the various chemical substinaces that effect ones perception. Such chemical use is servely punished outside the "Dope Motel". Those who want to indulge in chemical diversion may do so w/o posing a threat to those of us who don't at that point in time.

For true addicts, it'll never work. Try this with my caffeine and I'll smack you upside the head with a boiling hot expresso machine.

I don't think that's the point. The point, to me, anyway, is the sheer number

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It IS a valid point, though. If the NYPD is serving that many no-knocks and we aren't hearing about wrong addresses, shootings in error, etc, it just goes to prove that when we DO hear about such instances, it is in fact the rare occurance we are hearing about and not a routine thing, as the cop haters here and elsewhere would have us believe.

I am willing to bet that if NYPD is doing that many no-knocks, it is because of the calibre of offender they are dealing with in a city of 6 or 7 million people.