Things learned from concealed carry matches.

If I get in a real gun fight with a J Frame, I'm dead. It's a loud knife at best. I carry it when I don't need to carry.

Keep it up. If people actually showed up to try, they're already on the right path. It's the desire to improve that beats ego. Without that, they minus well just stay home.

An officers Colt isn't that small. I'd try my luck with a .45 DW CCO or ECO in .45. I'm assuming that a Glock 23 is too big for your competition?

Slamfire said:

I believe many competitors tend to associate their score with their sense of self, and as a measure of their value. Some, if they are not beating others, then they are not happy......

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Slight high-jack...

I think this right here hit the nail on the head so to speak. I do a lot of shooting through the year…last year just under 12k, 80-90% skeet and 5 stand the remaining pistol. Shooting for me is therapeutic, I do not care if I break one bird or all of them…I’ve been shooting with guys since I started (30+ years ago) and they cannot understand why I don’t care about the scores I get.

If I get in a real gun fight with a J Frame, I'm dead. It's a loud knife at best. I carry it when I don't need to carry.

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I don't think so if you know how to use it and have decent ammo. However, it's a one person, closer range gun. I've said, I carry mine when dress and circumstance constrain me but if it's as I described, it's better than a knife. I have one of those also but getting a touch old for that and it's a really last ditch option. More useful for opening packages and cutting up chicken dinners.

bearcreek said:

Interesting. I've never seen any competent handgun shooter who was even remotely close to as fast from a pocket as they are from a belt holster, even starting the pocket draw with the hand on the gun. Speed isn't always everything though. Speed from a pocket varies widely depending on the pants too.... Anyway, if you do run across that article online somewhere, I'd be interested.

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It's not the speed of the draw and presentation so much as eliminating the time needed for reaching toward, and grasping, a belt-holstered weapon. Obviously, this only comes into play if awareness is involved, and gives you sufficient warning and time to put your hand in your pocket. It's the subterfuge and surprise, and cutting out the "reaching for", that may allow for an advantage in some circumstances (posture and positioning will also matter, as bending at the hip on the pocket side will tend to obstruct a smooth and easy draw from the pocket).

Then, there's the ability for coat pocket carry to make drawing sometimes unnecessary. Granted, the passage of the bullet is going to tear your pocket, and if it's treated with some types of water repellent it may be flammable, and muzzle blast might start some unintentional smoking.

For a while I carried an older 649 Bodyguard .38SPL in the strongside pocket of my dress raincoat (plainclothes assignment). Nobody was ever the wiser if I felt it prudent to reach into my raincoat pocket.

I would actually like to be able to compete with my preferred carry pistol, my Browning 1911-380 Compact. However, it is far too big for the BUG category and shoots a 380, so it doesn't fit anywhere.

bearcreek said:

Interesting. I've never seen any competent handgun shooter who was even remotely close to as fast from a pocket as they are from a belt holster, even starting the pocket draw with the hand on the gun. Speed isn't always everything though. Speed from a pocket varies widely depending on the pants too.... Anyway, if you do run across that article online somewhere, I'd be interested.

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For an apples to apples comparison with pocket carry, the belt holster would need to be an appendix, iwb, or a small owb, each with a tucked or untucked cover garment.

Zendude said:

For an apples to apples comparison with pocket carry, the belt holster would need to be an appendix, iwb, or a small owb, each with a tucked or untucked cover garment.

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I know. That's what I mean. A good handgun shooter, with the weapon in an appendix or standard 3-4 o'clock IWB holster (whichever they're used to), starting with hands at sides or raised, will generally beat their own time from a pocket holster starting with hand on the gun.

Again, let me emphasize, as I did in my previous post, I understand that speed is critically important, but isn't everything.

I misread this as "concealed carry machetes" which to be honest may have been as good of a thread

I did a match where we started with a machete to engage one target, drop it and then go to guns. Kind of a fantasy. Some folks were in to gaming timing, so they just poked the target with the machete and dropped it. Oh, those milliseconds to make me a winner. Some of us righteously bisected the target as one should with a machete!

GEM said:

I did a match where we started with a machete to engage one target, drop it and then go to guns. Kind of a fantasy. Some folks were in to gaming timing, so they just poked the target with the machete and dropped it. Oh, those milliseconds to make me a winner. Some of us righteously bisected the target as one should with a machete!

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Awesome, that sounds awful fun. And yeah, you gotta hack that thing for all it's worth, that's the fun part!

As for this thread, good on the OP for running that match, I'd have enjoyed that. I don't get the chance to do any competition these days, matches are too far away, weekend schedule is hectic and two young kids take up a lot of time, but I do try to do stages for some of my practice as best I can and my carry gun is always most of my range time, and always in my normal carry rig.

If I might be needing it to save my life, I sure want to practice it a lot.

When proposing match courses, we must bear in mind that most folks don't have a range in their back yard and don't get as much practice, or the right sort of practice, as they ought. They are being asked to give up their money, and their all-too-scarce spare time, just to come last, and volunteer for it, too. It's hard getting people to put their hand up for that.

couldbeanyone said:

After observing people carrying small guns, and never seeming to practice with them, I decided to create concealed carry matches at our local range in an effort to get people to actually shoot what they carry.

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Good idea. Great plan. Too bad you didn't follow through. You seem to be stuck in the 'match' mentality. I do salute your observation of real carry guns and practicing with them.

Your idea of five shot stages is valid and realistic. In fact, more pistol shoots should be within the limits of the handgun used. I have read reports of shootouts with multiple assailants and huge amounts of ammunition expended, but those are quite rare. Most police involved shootings involve less than a normal handgun load of rounds. I've never read an account of a whole chapter of motorcycle villains or a Battalion of Red Chinese regulars attack a single person. Yet many 'matches' are predicated on the "30 round burst" mentality and all the winning hardware is build around that concept.

I normally carry a Colt Commander in .45 ACP. I carry it concealed. But I cannot carry it in your match because it's too big. So immediately, your match is a 'what I [YOU] think of a concealed weapon' match instead of a concealed weapon match. Rather limiting right away. The other extreme - and I have seen it - is for 'competitors' wear a race gun in a race rig and put a long rain slicker over the whole mess. One does not want that sort of equipment, either.

Pocket carry too slow? I keep trying to convince people of this, and it falls on deaf ears. The 'time' in a concealed weapons encounter does NOT begin when a whistle (or other signal) is made to the shooter. The 'time' starts when the villain decides one is a threat. Or just arbitrarily decides to shoot. By the way, unless the villain is a total incompetent - which may be true, but not a guarantee - not even a race gun in a race holster is going to win. How about starting the timing when the shooter starts? Oh, that's right. It's too hard to administer. But that concept is diametrically opposed to the actual demands of defense shooting.

I find the entire current concept of pistol matches are designed as a game. A game that must placate all the attorneys in the state and those who do not know the reality of self-defense.

Evan Marshall stated that twice in his career the pocket revolver saved his bacon. He said he would start a traffic stop with his off hand casually in his pants pocket, wrapped around the J Frame. I would consider him a pretty credible source.

I may be all wet but I have never been concerned with a fast draw from my pocket or holster.
I am more concerned with finding cover if possible or creating diversion while accessing my firearm.
But then again you just never know what kind of situation you may be faced with.

Matches are games and the participants will game them. To think otherwise is somewhat foolish in my opinion.

That is true. In this subset of matches, you should shoot realistic carry guns. The folks who game this genre to 'win' are foolish, IMHO. You get some trigger time with the carry guns beyond the square range.

I shot them with a G42 or 642. Some guys showed up with USPSA rigs. Wow - I'm impressed.

Kleanbore said:

Try some properly conducted FoF training, and see where your concern resides after that.

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If I find myself in a questionable situation, like at a gas pump for instance, my LCP is already in the palm of my hand.

I assume FoF is force on force?

flightsimmer said:

If I find myself in a questionable situation, like at a gas pump for instance, my LCP is already in the palm of my hand.

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Kleanbore said:

Really? All the time?

Be extremely careful about that being interpreted as an aggressive action.

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I, too, have gravitated to pocket carry of an LCP with Viridian Reactor laser sight, carried in an appropriate pocket holster (with magnet to activate the Viridian upon draw) and I also often find myself with my hand in my pocket with a full grip on the firearm when I'm walking from the parking lot to the store at night, etc. To anyone else, it just looks like my hand is in my pocket.

I can't do that when I IWB carry my G26. I can do it when I pocket carry my J-Frame, but after pocket carrying the much slimmer LCP, I find pocket carry of the J-Frame to be uncomfortable, and IWB carry of the J-Frame pointless since I have the G26.

Quote: It would not work for me. Peripheral neuropathy impairs my balance, and I need a walking stick. Unquote.

Then you already have a weapon in your hand, it's just not a handgun.

Sounds like a fun match... wish they'd set up something like that at my club... but just getting steel plates going was like pulling teeth as the perceived risk of an accident is higher.

I shoot my carry glock 26 in IDPA and USPSA in a IWB holster under my shirt. I figure that it is the most important gun that I need to be good with. I even use it in 3 gun but with a OWB holster(match rules). I do pretty well in our local matches, regularly beating out full size quasi-race guns in OWB holsters.

Hasaf said:

I would actually like to be able to compete with my preferred carry pistol, my Browning 1911-380 Compact. However, it is far too big for the BUG category and shoots a 380, so it doesn't fit anywhere.

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You can shoot in IDPA in the NSF division. Do it, it is fun!