Judge/Governor Hate

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The best Judge is the smallest Judge, which is the Public Defender. The 3 and 6 inch barrel Judges... I don't see what they do better than the Public Defender, it's not like the longer barrels make them more accurate or spin the .410 shot less and the fixed rear and fiber optic front sight are not conducive to accurate shooting at distance.

That said, I do like the Public Defender, it does what it's supposed to do well, which is be a good, powerful defensive handgun for a variety of threats.

And beyond that, it's just damn fun to shoot!
 
mcb said:
Have you shot much 410 slugs? Just about all the 410 slugs on the market will produce 650 ft-lbs or more from a shotgun length barrel. The Brenneke slugs produce 1000 ft-lbs from my 24-in Win 9410 barrel. The only problem is the horrible BC which limits range to fairly short range but within that range it is a mild recoiling cartridge with 357 mag levels of energy with light for caliber projectiles.

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Both deer taken using a Winchester 9410 shotgun. The top one with 410 Remington Sluggers and the bottom with 410 Brenneke slugs.
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The standard Remington 410 slugs are 88gr and hit 1800fps or so. That's pretty anemic for any shoulder fired gun. That's roughly 10mm out of a handgun level of power. It's not nothing but to put this in perspective, that's basically a 9mm carbine.

My hi point carbine when fired with hot +p stuff hits almost 1600 fps with a 115gr bullet. That's pretty identical to the 410 slug we are talking about, only heavier.

And in a Judge, they are subsonic. I've seen velocity listed as low as 800fps for that same Remington slug. It's incredibly ballistically similar to a 380, which is something that people that love Judges hate to hear lol
 
Antihero said:
The standard Remington 410 slugs are 88gr and hit 1800fps or so. That's pretty anemic for any shoulder fired gun. That's roughly 10mm out of a handgun level of power. It's not nothing but to put this in perspective, that's basically a 9mm carbine.

My hi point carbine when fired with hot +p stuff hits almost 1600 fps with a 115gr bullet. That's pretty identical to the 410 slug we are talking about, only heavier.

And in a Judge, they are subsonic. I've seen velocity listed as low as 800fps for that same Remington slug. It's incredibly ballistically similar to a 380, which is something that people that love Judges hate to hear lol
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And yet I have taken a deer with the Remington Sluggers and every other 410 slug on the market is equal or heavier. Winchester does a 1/5 similar to Remington and a 1/4 oz slug, Federal does 1/4 oz and Brenneke does a 114gr. The Thug slug from Ballistic Products for reloaders is 125 gr. The Remington are the most anemic of the bunch. But I never claimed otherwise but simple pointed out that if you are willing to live within there 410 slug's short range it is reasonable capable from a shotgun length barrel. It will never be the power house of the larger gauges but I have manage to successfully hunt everything from dove to deer with the 410 shotgun. It is capable if you up to the challenge it offers.
 
trackskippy said:
The Governor has a K frame grip, and if you use a grip that leaves the backstrap open, as the gun was designed, the reach for the trigger is basically the same for both frames. I shoot a number of both, and never had any issues until S&W started to put those rubber grips on that covered the backstrap. They really uck, and they came right off of the couple of guns I bought that had them.

If you look at the Governor, in a sense, it has a similar length barrel when shooting the 45's, its cylinder gap is just in a different place. :)

That "jump" in the cylinder you often hear that is supposed to be so bad.... my gun must have not got the memo. The 45's both shoot well, and the shorter 45acps shoot the best, so go figure.
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This is been my experience as well.

Very accurate with 45 acp. I don't reload and 45 colt is too expensive to buy for factory ammo (though now, so is any ammo).

I see it as useful if you are in the know.

You can't load it with some 410 birdshot or even the pdx rounds and think you have the ultimate street sweeper.

However, 410 federal buck is 4 .36 caliber balls exceeding 12 inches of penetration in testing. With each trigger pull. And decent groups to ten yards. That has merit at zero dark thirty.

For fast reloads and greater individual rounds the 45 acp and a gazillion moon clips make sense and work well.

I appreciate in ammo scarcity times being able to have many options I could grab to feed the governor.

I'd take a crappy 380 powered 410 slug over harsh language.

In my experience I would not recommend the judge.
 
chicharrones said:
You remind me of the biggest reason I didn't buy a Governor for fun or entertainment. The ammo that gun fires is not cheap.
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No matter how you look at it, and what you shoot, the gun is always the cheapest part of the equation, "if" youre shooting it regularly. And if you don't, is ammo cost really a problem?
 
GEM said:
We used to do Judge threads all the time. The end state was that it was a revolver as compared to a comparable size, higher capacity semi. The 45 rounds would work as a round but it's a revolver. Folks were convinced also that the 410 shells made it the ultimate stopper as compared to a standard round. Then some folks argued it is better for snakes than snake shot in standard revolvers.

Then it was cool for a 'truck' gun - meaning what?

That's all there is.
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I always imagine the the “use it for a truck gun” guys have their pistols and Shockwaves sliding around in the bed as they go about their business
 
BlueHeelerFl said:
Why do people think 410 self defense ammo. . . are (sic) useless?
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I don't know anyone who think it's useless. I know that nearly everyone I respect thinks it's poor choice in light of the many much better alternatives.

ThomasT said:
. . . when he ran across a copperhead den.
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I can't even. I don't mind snakes, but that needs an airstrike.
 
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The 410 was pushed as greatly superior, such that a clunky limited capacity gun was promoted as a wonder weapon for the newbie. Edwardware is quite correct.

It's not useless, but there are better for SD. It was not pushed as a rural, snake gun. That's, again, the core of the debate.
 
I look at the Judge series and the Governor as something different and kind of like a Swiss Army Knife. They have more than just one function but they don’t do any one function really well.

I quit looking down my nose at other people’s gun choices years ago when I shot my first Glock. I ran with a serious 1911 crowd. The .45 ACP ruled and in the 1911 was king. I wouldn’t look at a Glock and even had an insulting attitude to gun show vendors and anyone promoting or discussing that bane of society.
Then I shot one just to be polite to a guy that invited me along to an IDPA match.
Crow doesn’t taste so good…:rofl:

If Judges and Governors had no place in the world then why are they still being sold?
Because some folks like them.
Are they the perfect gun for anything in any way? Nope, but the Judge came out in 2006 and the Governor 2011. They are still around.
 
Walmart used to sell the federal 410 handgun buck. Don't recall it being too expensive.

I still happen on pdx / 410 triple defense occasionally in the wild and it doesn't seem any more costly than most ammo these days.

Found the Winchester 45 colt/410 pdx combo box recently, passed on a box of triple defense for 18 dollars (prefer the federal option, but I'd go with hornady before the pdx if I had to).

I prefer to label the governor as versatile.

No, it isn't as accurate as a dedicated caliber like a 586 in 357 or sig p226. But it's accurate enough with 45 acp to be combat accurate to 20 yards. Plenty for self defense. You have a wide range of options in a light and handy platform.

Nice tritium front sites. It packs well in a cheap holster from Amazon.

Would I pay asking price nowadays? No. Would I trade a beat to hell gen 3 g17 police trade in ?

Yes, yes I would. I had plenty of other 9mms, and the governor came with a duffle bag worth if 45 colt, 45 acp, 410 buck, snap caps etc. I'd make that trade again in a heart beat.

For the night stand, with 3 410 federal bucks and 3 45 colts I like it. Probably make a decent road trip /hotel gun in looking at that thread too. In normal times I reckon I could always find something to stuff in the cylinder.

It does a passable job in many roles where maybe you would need to take a couple different guns.

Big critters= 45 colt hardcast wadcutters.

Home defense, easy to train a newbie to put a lot of lead on target with 410 buck.

Ccw, yeah, long cylinder but it carries well. 45 acp with a few moon clips for back up.

Snakes, yeah it'll do that. For hiking you could load for snakes /bigger threats/2 legged threats in the same 6 shot cylinder.

You could load for car jacking defense/hotel defense and reach out further for vehicle defense in the same platform, same cylinder.

When 45 acp was 15 or under for /50 you can plink with 45 acp ball ammo. It will feed any bizarro hollow point you load in there being a revolver. Arx rounds, light jhps, anything you want. 410 handgun buck is good inside the house. You can do a lot with standard pressure 45 colt rounds too, though these are the least accurate in mine and the most expensive factory option usually.

200-250 grain lead flat point 45 colt ammo is very accurate and relatively inexpensive. Mine shoots those rounds best.

If I was carrying it with possible larger animals a threat , a box of hardcast wadcutters from buffalo bore is a good option and you could do a lot worse.

It's nice to have options. I think it does a lot of things, so in a way the governor excels at being flexible and can be pressed into service in a number of roles.
 
GEM said:
The 410 was pushed as greatly superior, such that a clunky limited capacity gun was promoted as a wonder weapon for the newbie. Edwardware is quite correct.

It's not useless, but there are better for SD. It was not pushed as a rural, snake gun. That's, again, the core of the debate.
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That is exactly what people told me when I started hearing about it:

“There’s this new revolver that’s really awesome, you can shoot 410 out of it for home defense AND 45 Colt out of it for hunting AND small-bore slugs for—“

“For what?”

“Well for all sorts of things, I mean like, well like….”
 
TTv2 said:
The best Judge is the smallest Judge, which is the Public Defender. The 3 and 6 inch barrel Judges... I don't see what they do better than the Public Defender, it's not like the longer barrels make them more accurate or spin the .410 shot less and the fixed rear and fiber optic front sight are not conducive to accurate shooting at distance.

That said, I do like the Public Defender, it does what it's supposed to do well, which is be a good, powerful defensive handgun for a variety of threats.

And beyond that, it's just damn fun to shoot!
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Totally. Plus, you need to have the cylinder longer than the barrel to really show off the idea of the gun. “I got 6 hopper-fulls of anything I please, headed in your general direction.”


It’s a strange gun, let’s face it. Think of it as a Forgotten Weapons gun that actually shoots!
 
On my cross country road trips and stopping in hotel/motels - where legal (I of course planned such), I much preferred a 9mm that I shoot easily and accurately, along with a more than 6 capacity wonder 410 load. In the house - my house, a good 9mm or 45 ACP handgun - I see no advantage to the 410 loads. If I want buck, its 12 gauge.

Again its a gun and it's so-called advantages are spurious.

The original article seems to have disappeared into the void as SWAT magazine folded. I didn't see it in their so-called archive and a related podcast seems to not work, but here's a summary by Tom Givens:

The September 2010 issue of SWAT magazine has an article on the Judge by Tom Givens of Range-masters in Memphis TN. He is a certified firearms instructor for the FBI and the state of Tennessee. His conclusions after testing the Taurus Judge, including with bird shot, buckshot, and slugs as well as .45 Colt loads:

"The verdict?
I can't find anything the Judge does well that a standard handgun won't do better. At room ranges (5 to 7 yards) the buckshot pattern is so small that it must be aimed precisely, just like a handgun bullet, so there is no advantage there. Beyond that distance, danger to bystanders is simply too great to even consider using the gun. With bird shot, the Judge is essentially useless. With .45 ammo, it is a large, ungainly piece with poor accuracy.


As part of the testing he fired bird shot at 15 feet into a plastic water bottle and the few pellets that hit is simply bounced off, Also, a .410 slug load in the Judge launches a 90 grain projectile at less than 1,000 fps. In other words, it has the ballistics of a .380 ACP in a gun bigger and heaver than many .44 magnums. You don't need much more info than that to know that the Judge is a bad idea for a defensive gun, but Taurus is making a ton of money off of it.
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Anyway, until we do the Judge again, along with 5 is enough.
 
edwardware said:
I don't know anyone who think it's useless. I know that nearly everyone I respect thinks it's poor choice in light of the many much better alternatives.


I can't even. I don't mind snakes, but that needs an airstrike.
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That needs an mini nuke.
 
mcb said:
They look heavy but they really are not. A Taurus Judge 3-inch barrel and the S&W Governor only weigh ~29 oz. For comparison a Model 10 Heavy barrel weight ~34 oz. The cylinder is big but has great big holes in it removing the majority of the mass.
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Until you fill those bore holes with shotgun shells. A couple of friends carry them when they're arrowhead hunting in creeks for snake defense, that's my only exposure to them. The amount of weight I carry in the creek is carefully considered, I'm old, we sometimes make very long hikes, it's hot in those woods, and anything not vital to the task just makes me that much more tired on the way back to the truck. So for this purpose, which would be the only use that has made me even consider having one, I can't justify the extra weight, and I don't kill the snakes these days anyway.

And I'm not really expressing hate, just spelling out why I don't see any need for me to have one, I think how people spend their money is their own business. I just don't really get the concept from a practical standpoint; others on this thread have spelled out the reasons so no need to re-hash. Apparently a lot of people do see value in them, they are still selling them.
 
mcb said:
But it is cheap to reload.
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trackskippy said:
No matter how you look at it, and what you shoot, the gun is always the cheapest part of the equation, "if" youre shooting it regularly. And if you don't, is ammo cost really a problem?
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I'm not a reloader (yet), so I prefer 9mm practice costs versus .410 / .45 Colt practice costs. :oops:

Not counting rifle ammo, the most expensive cartridges I buy are .357 mag and .45 ACP. :)

Perhaps I'm thinking about it wrong and should be splitting the ammo cost of .410 into each projectile and not by the shot shell. :evil:
 
I don't like them and it's only because I have a friend who thinks they're incredible, despite never having fired one, and believes they are the portable equivalent to his 12ga pistol grip only shotgun. I've been listening to them rattle on for years about how badass they are, yet they seem resistant to the realities of the gun and aren't interested in ballistic tests. Taurus probably sells a LOT of judges to people just like my friend! Same guys who don't like to own anything in metric calibers :rofl:
 
chicharrones said:
I'm not a reloader (yet), so I prefer 9mm practice costs versus .410 / .45 Colt practice costs. :oops:

Not counting rifle ammo, the most expensive cartridges I buy are .357 mag and .45 ACP. :)

Perhaps I'm thinking about it wrong and should be splitting the ammo cost of .410 into each projectile and not by the shot shell. :evil:
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Just go for the governor and share that 45 acp ammo. Moon clips are cheap and stack deep!
 
GEM said:
On my cross country road trips and stopping in hotel/motels - where legal (I of course planned such), I much preferred a 9mm that I shoot easily and accurately, along with a more than 6 capacity wonder 410 load. In the house - my house, a good 9mm or 45 ACP handgun - I see no advantage to the 410 loads. If I want buck, its 12 gauge.

Again its a gun and it's so-called advantages are spurious.

The original article seems to have disappeared into the void as SWAT magazine folded. I didn't see it in their so-called archive and a related podcast seems to not work, but here's a summary by Tom Givens:



Anyway, until we do the Judge again, along with 5 is enough.
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I think for hotel there is merit in 4 36 caliber balls at 750+ fps / per trigger pull, to maximize lead on target and also minimize over penetration with other guests.

I reckon the 410 buck goes through less walls Vs a 9mm +p.

12 gauge buck has no argument against it, but you'll be using 2 hands.

I can navigate the familiar dark with a fully loaded governor and 6 rounds of buck, 24 projectiles leaving me a hand free which could be advantageous.
 
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