More Non-Lead Bullets Choices

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JRWhit

JRWhit

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Humbly I bring this before you as an appeal. In the last few years I have felt a vacuum in a place where I would feel that the hunting community would typically lead the way. Being brought up in my life, hunting has always been synonymous with conservation of our wildlife and the protection thereof. We as hunters know now what we didn't know before about the effects of left over lead particles in game remains and in some cases the ingestion of full lead projectiles found in wounded game that is lost. We know what it does to the scavengers who ingest them. Slowly for a while now I have been transitioning to the solid copper alloys in the reloading room for hunting. The lower cost lead projectiles still have an important role in target work but my goal is to replace all of my hunting loads will non-lead and in some cases, the expansion and retention of these solid projectiles are preferable to that of lead. Unfortunately the road block I run in to is availability and choice. This is where I believe that the hunting community should be leading the way in appealing to bullet smiths for more non-lead choices. The price of a solid copper projectile is not the most expensive projectile out there. If consumer demand drives an uptick in non-lead, I believe the cost will ultimately be vary similar to that of copper plated lead.
Not that this should be the driving force, but fact is that eventually this will likely be driven by forced regulation and likely in a way that leaves the market with a deficit of supply to meet the demand. I would personally prefer to vote with my dollar in the free market. When available, I try to buy non lead. The more it sells the more R&D manufacturers will pour into them, ultimately giving us better and more available products.
In the latter part of 2015 and if reports are true, we very nearly had leaded projectiles banned on all Federal lands. I can't say that I disagree with the need but I would have been caught completely off-guard and would have had nothing to hunt with. As a hunter It also felt self scolded because I knew I didn't need to be told that I need a different solution to lead. As a hunter, un-intended poisoning of other wild life after the kill weighs on me quite heavily and demands a corrective action. My appeal to you as the reader is this. Lets begin to make this change as consumers. Like said, save the leaded projectiles for target work. As we buy more non-lead more will become available. Encourage others in your circle to hunt with non-lead. At the end of the day this is what we as hunters/conservationist are all about and I think we need to be the lead on this.
I hope others will feel the same way. Thanks for listening.
 
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We've discussed lead projectiles and the environment quite a bit here. That doesn't mean that I think it's settled, you bring up valid concerns, IMO.

If you do your own research into field studies your opinions in your OP might change. I used to think non-lead projectiles were pretty important to the environment as well at one time.

But like many things I thought I knew, my research into lead projectiles and impacts to the environment changed my view, because I learned it was a narrative and not fact like so many things are these days.
 
Ru4real said:
We've discussed lead projectiles and the environment quite a bit here. That doesn't mean that I think it's settled, you bring up valid concerns, IMO.

If you do your own research into field studies your opinions in your OP might change. I used to think non-lead projectiles were pretty important to the environment as well at one time.

But like many things I thought I knew, my research into lead projectiles and impacts to the environment changed my view, because I learned it was a narrative and not fact like so many things are these days.
Click to expand...

While much of it sounds convincing, I admit I'm all to aware of the slew of misinformation that shades the truth for the sake of agenda. I wish it wasn't so but we are all so cautious over what is being sold for good reason. As I continue to digest information on this I will keep that in mind.
 
JRWhit said:
likely be driven by forced regulation and likely in a way that leaves the market with a deficit of supply to meet the demand.
Click to expand...

The actual intent.
Forcing the shooting sports to the wealthy man’s game.
The exact reason for the Federal lands proposals.

Last I knew, eating copper is toxic, too.


I would think regulations would push to have range berms turned over and mined more often, removing a literal pile of exposed bullets, rather than worry about a single stray bullet laying in the bottom of a creek.
How many animals are wounded with the bullet still in them to be left for all these majestic vultures?
I would contend efforts need to be made for clean kills and recovered game, if there are so much down game left that the bullet is poisoning raptors.

The fact is, lead is most dangerous flying through the air, not lying on the ground.

I’m all for the performance of copper mono-metal bullet benefits for magnum speed impacts. The rest of the benefits seem laudatory, but mostly auditory. Intangible.

Unless one is already predisposed to hate lead.
I don’t. It was made for this purpose.
 
Demi-human said:
The actual intent.
Forcing the shooting sports to the wealthy man’s game.
The exact reason for the Federal lands proposals.

Last I knew, eating copper is toxic, too.


I would think regulations would push to have range berms turned over and mined more often, removing a literal pile of exposed bullets, rather than worry about a single stray bullet laying in the bottom of a creek.
How many animals are wounded with the bullet still in them to be left for all these majestic vultures?
I would contend efforts need to be made for clean kills and recovered game, if there are so much down game left that the bullet is poisoning raptors.

The fact is, lead is most dangerous flying through the air, not lying on the ground.

I’m all for the performance of copper mono-metal bullet benefits for magnum speed impacts. The rest of the benefits seem laudatory, but mostly auditory. Intangible.

Unless one is already predisposed to hate lead.
I don’t. It was made for this purpose.
Click to expand...
I agree. They've certainly come a long way on developing copper and copper matrix rounds with tangible speed out of short barrels that equal the force of their lead counterparts. It allows a shorter barrel snubbie or compact a little more lethality.

I embrace the technology of the new wave ammo but at the same time hold onto the reliability and responsible use of proven lead based ammo.

There is debate on whether lead can leach into ground water. I can dig out the lead from my range sand pile that has been there for years and it hasn't changed since the day it buried itself. All the people that I know that live near military firing ranges have never complained about increased lead content in their drinking water. Sometimes you don't know whether some of the studies that are done are truly scientific or politically created to achieve an ulterior goal.
 
The sky screamers are intent on saving just one scavanger and want to ban lead. Those same individuals want a complete gun ban, for if it only saves one child. Nevermind guns used defensively save many thousands of lives yearly. IF IT ONLY SAVES ONE!!!!

LMAO!:rofl:

On the other hand it is good that other materials are being developed and we have the right to use them or not as we see fit. The studys are not as they seem if you look at WHO is doing them. Just sayi'n.
 
In some ways solid copper bullets are superior to conventional lead bullets for hunting. I've experimented with them at the range, but haven't shot any game with them. For what I do, what I hunt, and where I hunt, most of the time conventional bullets are the better option for me. But in the right application I'd choose copper over lead in some cases. And if mandated by law wouldn't feel handicapped. As to cost, the solid copper bullets just aren't that much more expensive, if any, compared to the premium hunting bullets I'm already using.

But from an environmental perspective I just don't see lead big game bullets posing much of a threat. Most of us only fire 1-3 shots at game animals each year on average. Think about how much lead is in the ground from the Revolutionary and Civil wars fought in the East and and the Indian wars fought in the west from 1776-1900. In comparison big game hunters don't add a drop in a bucket to the amount of lead.

Waterfowl hunting I understand. Most of the hunting is done in fairly concentrated marshland with tens of thousands of shells fired into the air each year with millions upon millions of lead pellets falling to the ground. Over a few years there could be enough lead to cause serious problems.
 
JRWhit said:
Humbly I bring this before you as an appeal. In the last few years I have felt a vacuum in a place where I would feel that the hunting community would typically lead the way. Being brought up in my life, hunting has always been synonymous with conservation of our wildlife and the protection thereof. We as hunters know now what we didn't know before about the effects of left over lead particles in game remains and in some cases the ingestion of full lead projectiles found in wounded game that is lost. We know what it does to the scavengers who ingest them. Slowly for a while now I have been transitioning to the solid copper alloys in the reloading room for hunting. The lower cost lead projectiles still have an important role in target work but my goal is to replace all of my hunting loads will non-lead and in some cases, the expansion and retention of these solid projectiles are preferable to that of lead. Unfortunately the road block I run in to is availability and choice. This is where I believe that the hunting community should be leading the way in appealing to bullet smiths for more non-lead choices. The price of a solid copper projectile is not the most expensive projectile out there. If consumer demand drives an uptick in non-lead, I believe the cost will ultimately be vary similar to that of copper plated lead.
Not that this should be the driving force, but fact is that eventually this will likely be driven by forced regulation and likely in a way that leaves the market with a deficit of supply to meet the demand. I would personally prefer to vote with my dollar in the free market. When available, I try to buy non lead. The more it sells the more R&D manufacturers will pour into them, ultimately giving us better and more available products.
In the latter part of 2015 and if reports are true, we very nearly had leaded projectiles banned on all Federal lands. I can't say that I disagree with the need but I would have been caught completely off-guard and would have had nothing to hunt with. As a hunter It also felt self scolded because I knew I didn't need to be told that I need a different solution to lead. As a hunter, un-intended poisoning of other wild life after the kill weighs on me quite heavily and demands a corrective action. My appeal to you as the reader is this. Lets begin to make this change as consumers. Like said, save the leaded projectiles for target work. As we buy more non-lead more will become available. Encourage others in your circle to hunt with non-lead. At the end of the day this is what we as hunters/conservationist are all about and I think we need to be the lead on this.
I hope others will feel the same way. Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...
How many people have their water delivered to their homes in lead pipes? I know there was an issue up in Flint MI a few years back, but I believe they changed water treatments that caused old lead to become soluble. What did they do with all that contaminated water? Also, where does lead come from? Last I knew it was mined from the ground, you know, where the water aquifers are. I think we are making something out of nothing. JMHO
 
I have used them since the early ‘90’s, and much prefer them to conventional cup and core bullets from a high velocity rifle......but, it has absolutely nothing to do with lead toxicity. I think that the mono bullets are superior to the majority of cup and core bullets for game.....especially larger, heavy boned, thick skinned or in the advent that a steep raking shot must be taken!

That said, I use cast bullets in my handguns and my low velocity big (er) bore rifles for hunting. They’re also used for plinking in most of our handguns and rifles. In some situations, lead/lead alloys simply have their place in society! ;) memtb
 
Europe is now looking at banning all lead in ammunition, and not just hunting, and not just wetlands.
 
LNK said:
Last I knew it was mined from the ground, you know, where the water aquifers are.
Click to expand...
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
LOL! I never thought of that! My wife and I just had to have a new well drilled (we've been here for 42 years), and while we don't have lead pipe, we had rusty galvanized pipe coming up out of our pump, and after 80 feet, turning to go into the house. The pump guy replaced that first 80' or so with 1" PVC, but the last 40' of galvanized was still good (not rusty) so we just left it.
At any rate, I was feeling pretty good about replacing that old, rusted, galvanized steel pipe - until I read your post. We probably still have a little lead in our drinking water because we're pumping it out of the same underground aquifer that we had been pumping it out of for the past 42 years!:eek::D
 
If lead was that toxic then the Civil War battlefields would all be Superfund sites.

If one digs up a Civil War bullet it is just about the same diameter as when it was fired. Can't mobilize a material unless it is deteriorating.

I see this as mostly just another attack from the left. Best thing we can do is to get more women and people of color into the shooting sports and hunting. They can push back much more effectively than I can (old white guy from the South).
 
SundownRider said:
If we shoot lead bullets, aren't we just returning the bounty of the earth from whence it came?
Click to expand...
Yeah, maybe. But couldn't the same be said for most all bullets no matter what they're constructed of?
I actually don't care. I'm probably going to just keep on shooting lead, and lead core bullets for the rest of my days - which seeing as how I'm 73 might not be all that many.;)
 
.308 Norma said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
LOL! I never thought of that! My wife and I just had to have a new well drilled (we've been here for 42 years), and while we don't have lead pipe, we had rusty galvanized pipe coming up out of our pump, and after 80 feet, turning to go into the house. The pump guy replaced that first 80' or so with 1" PVC, but the last 40' of galvanized was still good (not rusty) so we just left it.
At any rate, I was feeling pretty good about replacing that old, rusted, galvanized steel pipe - until I read your post. We probably still have a little lead in our drinking water because we're pumping it out of the same underground aquifer that we had been pumping it out of for the past 42 years!:eek::D
Click to expand...

IIRC, the coating on galvanized pipes is some kind of zinc coating, possibly zinc phosphate. Zinc is also a "heavy metal" with toxic properties in high quantities but still necessary for life as a micronutrient. Look at any bottle of vitamins and you'll fine zinc, selenium, copper, molybdenum, and even chromium.
 
Steel pipes are zinc coated (galvanized) and that prevents corrosion. Same as a zinc on an outboard motor to stop corrosion. If you have copper pipes in your house that have been there longer than 15 years then they were sweat (soldered) together with lead solder this is how you get most of your lead in drinking water. From letting water set in the pipes overnight to leach into the drimking water if it is not PH of 7. Most town water is regulated to 7 to stop this from happening. If you are worried get a test kit and test for lead. Most lead bullets will not cause problems with the aquifer unless the conditions in the soil allow it to be disolved.
 
I’m a road and bridge contractor. Back in the 90s there was a big push to start lead abatement in regards to the paint on old steel bridge beams that were being refurbished or demolished. One abatement contractor I worked with said he felt it was ridiculous considering the amount of lead that layers the earth from gasoline emissions before unleaded fuels. I never thought about that till then. All that dust we breathe... makes you wonder what the truth actually is.
 
You know, this type of talk is all well and good, until you consider certain factors. Lead is in darn near everything, and has been for many years. And try as we might, we aren't going to completely do away with it. Sure, we might pass feel-good laws dealing with abatement, etc, but we'll never truly be rid of lead. Like many others have said, what about all the great battlefields? We gonna plow 'em all up and sift the bullets out of the dirt? Of course not; it simply isn't feasible.

The biggest problem I see here is the American people are getting soft; scared of their own shadows. I think it's time we all quit worrying about the welfare of every little bird and creature in the forest, and get on about enjoying our lives. And for me, that means casting and shooting lead bullets at paper, steel, and furry forest creatures!

Mac
 
JRWhit said:
Humbly I bring this before you as an appeal. In the last few years I have felt a vacuum in a place where I would feel that the hunting community would typically lead the way. Being brought up in my life, hunting has always been synonymous with conservation of our wildlife and the protection thereof. We as hunters know now what we didn't know before about the effects of left over lead particles in game remains and in some cases the ingestion of full lead projectiles found in wounded game that is lost. We know what it does to the scavengers who ingest them. Slowly for a while now I have been transitioning to the solid copper alloys in the reloading room for hunting. The lower cost lead projectiles still have an important role in target work but my goal is to replace all of my hunting loads will non-lead and in some cases, the expansion and retention of these solid projectiles are preferable to that of lead. Unfortunately the road block I run in to is availability and choice. This is where I believe that the hunting community should be leading the way in appealing to bullet smiths for more non-lead choices. The price of a solid copper projectile is not the most expensive projectile out there. If consumer demand drives an uptick in non-lead, I believe the cost will ultimately be vary similar to that of copper plated lead.
Not that this should be the driving force, but fact is that eventually this will likely be driven by forced regulation and likely in a way that leaves the market with a deficit of supply to meet the demand. I would personally prefer to vote with my dollar in the free market. When available, I try to buy non lead. The more it sells the more R&D manufacturers will pour into them, ultimately giving us better and more available products.
In the latter part of 2015 and if reports are true, we very nearly had leaded projectiles banned on all Federal lands. I can't say that I disagree with the need but I would have been caught completely off-guard and would have had nothing to hunt with. As a hunter It also felt self scolded because I knew I didn't need to be told that I need a different solution to lead. As a hunter, un-intended poisoning of other wild life after the kill weighs on me quite heavily and demands a corrective action. My appeal to you as the reader is this. Lets begin to make this change as consumers. Like said, save the leaded projectiles for target work. As we buy more non-lead more will become available. Encourage others in your circle to hunt with non-lead. At the end of the day this is what we as hunters/conservationist are all about and I think we need to be the lead on this.
I hope others will feel the same way. Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...
Why do you think I was excited when midway had Barnes TSX bullets in .311cal for a really good price? That said, I’m doing mostly for me. My new job has increased my exposure to lead and my last test said my levels were slightly elevated so I figure at least a little, I can mitigate that somewhere.
 
Four out five bucks killed on my 78 acres here in South GA.... were killed with Barnes TTSX bullets ....
Three were killed using the 80 grain out of a .243 Winchester .... the other was killed with a 120 grain in a 7-08 ....
10 steps was as far as any took .... a 180 lbs eight point my Grandson shot free hand at 125 yards went about four steps...
PSX-20201025-190947.jpg
8 shots in 1/2" dot 100yards TTSX 80 grain .243
IMG-20191123-132153831.jpg
 
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