Is baiting really hunting?

In this 21st century, there's not always
the huge unbroken expanses of land to
go stalking animals all day like there
used to be. There's many places I
know of that you can either walk 20
minutes to a blind and sit, or stay at
home and drink coffee on the back porch.
The places I've hunted the last few
decades, you won't be doing any stalking
because the wary deer can tell exactly
where you're walking around and
keep a hundred yards of brush between
you and them.
I'm more disillusioned by the numbers of
people who think it's ok to guzzle beer
the whole day long and carry a cooler
full around and to the hunting blind
with them

All said and done, my motto is to
hunt your own hunt, and let me hunt mine

Since hunting over bait does not interfere with my hunt I'm ok with it nothing more than setting over a bean field. If it gets more people hunting I'm all for it since the number of hunters gets lower each year. Now dog hunting deer that's a different story they often interfere with still hunters, trespass and before hunting clubs got big almost any farmer would let you hunt his land. The buffalo shooting well that's probably how its done its not hunting it's killing a buffalo. I'm in virginia and laugh at dog hunters when they say I got a deer, No you and 20 other guys with 12 dogs, radios and trucks got a deer. I do not consider hunting a team sport.

snowman357 said:

Since hunting over bait does not interfere with my hunt I'm ok with it nothing more than setting over a bean field. If it gets more people hunting I'm all for it since the number of hunters gets lower each year. Now dog hunting deer that's a different story they often interfere with still hunters, trespass and before hunting clubs got big almost any farmer would let you hunt his land. The buffalo shooting well that's probably how its done its not hunting it's killing a buffalo. I'm in virginia and laugh at dog hunters when they say I got a deer, No you and 20 other guys with 12 dogs, radios and trucks got a deer. I do not consider hunting a team sport.

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What if all the "dogs" are other hunters? Back in Ohio I did a lot of driven deer hunts where one group went to a natural bottle neck in the terrain and the rest would try to push the deer that way. Being one of the younger guys I got hound-dog duty quiet a bit. Got one of my biggest Ohio deer that way on a driven hunt. I told them where I though the deer would cross a ridge in a natural saddle and to push that way, I snuck into the area from the other side and shimmed my way up in a clump of silver maple about 12 feet off the ground. Shot a 200 lbs 9-pt with my muzzle loader from while wedge in that tree. If that ain't hunting I am not sure what is. I predicted where he would go, got there found/made a position that let me see in the thick brush and made a fairly difficult shot. The fact he was pushed there by friends and family did not diminish my skill of putting myself in the right spot to get that shot or my friends and family that pushed them but did not panic them. Driven hunts done right take as much skill as a good stalk hunting in my book and I have successfully done both.

It seems a bit more harvesting than hunting, but - in a sense it is still hunting a wild animal, there is no guarantee of success.

mcb said:

What if all the "dogs" are other hunters? Back in Ohio I did a lot of driven deer hunters where one group went to a natural bottle neck in the terrain and the rest would try to push the deer that way. Being one of the younger guys I got hound-dog duty quiet a bit. Got one of my biggest Ohio deer that way on a driven hunt. I told them where I though the deer would cross a ridge in a natural saddle and to push that way, I snuck into the area from the other side and shimmed my way up in a clump of silver maple about 12 feet off the ground. Shot a 200 lbs 9-pt with my muzzle loader from while wedge in that tree. If that ain't hunting I am not sure what is. I predicted where he would go, got there found/made a position that let me see in the thick brush and made a fairly difficult shot. The fact he was pushed there by friends and family did not diminish my skill of putting myself in the right spot to get that shot or my friends and family that pushed them but did not panic them. Driven hunts done right take as much skill as a good stalk hunting in my book and I have successfully done both.

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No problems with that, people know where property lines are.

Septicdeath said:

Do you think shooting over a bait station is true hunting?

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I simply don't care if it is or not.
I certainly have tremendous respect for the skills of folks who can go into the woods and stalk game. But I go to the woods for 3 main reasons.

1. To be outdoors enjoying myself in nature.
2. To put delicious venison in the freezer.
3. To sit around the camp fire at night with people I love smoking cigars, drinking beer, and talking about the days hunt.

I don't care if it is considered true hunting.

Carl N. Brown said:

Hunting over bait is ethical in subsistence hunting, culling excess population, or exterminating vermin.
But it is not very sporting.

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Well I have a gun and the deer don't.
I'm pretty sure the sporting ship has already sailed right off the bat.

"Is baiting really hunting?"

Hmmm...since you brought up this as a question of morality with respect to hunting:

Is hunting with a weapon that has an effective killing range of several hundred yards really hunting?

Is sitting in your uncle's back yard overlooking their half-acre garden and shooting rabbits eating the plants really hunting?

Is using dogs to track prey hunting?

Is spotlighting hunting?

Is gathering a large group of people together to herd prey to their deaths hunting?

Is chasing prey up a tree with dogs and then shooting the prey out of the tree hunting?

I could come up with plenty more, but I'll leave it at these.


The ethics of hunting aren't concrete when you back up and look at these examples. These questions need more background to flesh out the ethics.

What if hunting is a major source of food for the family for whatever reason? Such a person isn't concerned about the "sportsmanship" of hunting, he's concerned with putting meat in his freezer so his family can eat.

Hunting limits are based on conservation, environmental impact, safety, and more. If the deer population takes a dive, then the annual limits on taking deer go down in response. If they take a sharp rise, then the annual limits go up to keep the population in control. So long as a person takes no more than his limit, what difference does it make how he does it? It has no adverse effect on conservation principles.

It's arrogant to criticize other hunters as long as their methods are legal for their area and I feel no compulsion to seek anyone's approval...well, except for the game warden.

IMO baiting is not hunting , including food plots . It is unlawful to hunt at a baited spot here , including a salt lick , but a food plot is legal , go figure . Most people run dogs here for deer hunting . I consider that more luck than hunting , you pick a stand before the hunt and hope the dogs run a deer by your stand . I don’t like the use of trail cameras either , especially the cellular ones that send a picture right to your phone .

Curious, why do so many think hunting deer with dogs is bad/unethical but hunting cottontail rabbits or upland birds with dogs is acceptable? Never hunted deer with dogs but grew up hunting rabbits with beagles. Rabbit hunting with beagles was my first hunting experience. I have also hunted my fair share of pheasant with my buddies labs.

The more I learn about "fair chase' the less I seem to have a concrete idea of what it is...

Septicdeath said:

"Do you consider baiting and shooting hunting? This is a discussion on another forum. I myself hunt and have never done so. In my opinion it not hunting! Its a shooting gallery where you kill.
Do you think shooting over a bait station is true hunting?
Fair chase is the American hunting tradition. Baiting is the tactic too many have resorted to. The hunt is all about the search, chase and stalk. The harvest is the reward for a hunt well done. We have become an impatient performance oriented society. We have let our lives mimic TV. Shooting game over bait is just a short step away from shooting an animal in a pen or tied to a tree. Hone the skills of the hunt and you will find yourself harvesting as much game as the bait shooters. With greater reward.
There's no need to bait, if there aren't enough squirrels around it won't help. To me baiting makes me a shooter not a hunter, this is my opinion. It is more fun and rewarding to hunt them the hard way.

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I don't do a lot of baiting on the hogs I hunt, mostly spot, stalk, and shoot. HOWEVER, I will tell you like I tell a lot of the uptight hunt snobs who seem to think that if you hunt different than they do that you are doing it wrong. Most of the hunters I have encountered that think baiting is bad, have absolutely no problem with hunting crop fields, water holes, berry patches, orchards, or trails. Now you may say to yourself, but those aren't bait. Those are part of the environment and not put there by the hunter. I say BULL HOCKEY! These are all forms of attractant, aka bait, that draws the animal to the location. All of the consumables are 100% attractants, just like bait. Who put it there or if it is natural isn't relevant. What about trails? Animals are attracted to and use common paths and paths of least resistance.

An attractant by any other name is still nothing more than a form of bait if a hunter takes advantage of it for trying to kill animals.

mcb said:

The more I learn about "fair chase' the less I seem to have a concrete idea of what it is...

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Pretty much this. Took a deep dive into what ethical hunting was and how to do it right over the last couple years. Best answer I could come up with was "it depends." I do think the nuance is lost in most conversations nowadays and often to our detriment, hunting being no exception.

To be specific to baiting it gets interesting when we bring up hunting black bear. Ideally I'd want to take a boat and ideally I'd like the proximity and time to make a solid judgment on both the sex of the bear and the possibil presence of cubs. Baiting makes this specific example much more realistic for the average hunter. Is it more ethical to make the hunt more fair but higher odds of misidentified game or making it easier to both make a positive identification and harvest? (Disclaimer: never hunted bear, just going off what I've read.)

Another nuance I heard awhile back was decoys and calls when hunting waterfowl and turkey. A gentleman refered to the decoys and calls as visual and auditory attractants respectively. Definitely a difference than spreading around food but does make that line a mite blurrier from that point of view.

mcb said:

The more I learn about "fair chase' the less I seem to have a concrete idea of what it is...

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Indeed.

The issue of ethics with respect to hunting lies solely in the human province. Nowhere else in the animal kingdom (which, contrary to popular opinion amongst many, humanity is a part of) does the issue of "ethics" come up.

Predators hunt prey all the time, and they do so with all the advantages they are endowed with. And yes...predators learn what works and what doesn't and they apply that knowledge to their own benefit. One could arguably say that "fair chase" is kind of lobsided when a predator's speed, sense of smell, and armament radically outmatches that of its prey. Or its stealth, venom, and speed of attack outmatches that of its prey. Or its ability to work together in groups to outmatch its prey. And yet, these examples are exactly how things work out in nature.

We debate the issue of ethical takedown of our prey, with an emphasis on "clean kill". Yet the wolf or lion which separates out its prey from a herd and then runs it to its death ripping out its throat is hardly what humans these days would call a "clean kill". The animal has been terrorized, run down, and killed in a most gruesome manner, and many times fed upon while still in the process of dying. Humans that have been victims of venomous attacks by a variety of critters can personally attest to the pain and suffering they experienced in the process. Again, not something we would consider a "clean kill". And let's not get into constrictors...definitely not in the category of the human definition of a "clean kill".

No, the concept of a "fair chase" lies solely in the human province and has absolutely no basis, nor meaning, in nature. We are, in fact, acting in accordance with our own human nature however this may be done.

What is DIFFERENT, however, is the apparent human ability to look beyond our actions to the potential future consequences of those actions. We are able to see, for example, that some circumstances may lead to the overall detriment of the species involved...that this may also lead to either adverse or beneficial results down the line.

Therefore, if we're going to argue for or against a particular hunting behavior, it should be based on our ability to look beyond our actions and assess the potential impact of the consequences. NOT on the dubious issue of ethics revolving around concepts such as "fair chase".

(Personally, we're not too good on this ability to assess consequences either, what with people's ability to impress their own mistaken beliefs on what those consequences may be.)

LOL

Even with this sign, baiting in MN is illegal. (Not as in a sick bird, but against the law.)
Therefore, hunting over bait in my climate is not fair, being how that was the way I was brought up.

A bit of our history from about two decades ago...
My wife and I were hunting a piece of Potlach land and were invaded by by 2 guys from Wisconsin.
Did not care that they are here as it is (was) a huge tract. No big deal...
I met up with my better half about lunchtime one day on our way back to our truck.
She pulled some corn out of her pocket. I said "Where did you find that?"
She said "Next to a kill sight because of the blood, crap and birds".

Anyways, these "Cheeseheads* had 2 nice bucks hanging in their camp.
As chance would have it, two Game Wardens pulled up to us as we reached our truck and my wife confronted them with the "evidence".
The C.O.s had nothing to do with the corn thus ending my wife's interest in deer hunting. HUNTING. forever

* Hey, no offense to my friends in Wisconsin!

Septicdeath said:

I wasn't looking for resistance. Just wanted opinion and controversy.

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You get out of it what you put into it. Most people want that easy mount, that looks great, so they can mount the rack, or get the animal stuffed.
It all depends upon you, what do you want ? I know people who work, hard, all year, doing prep work, in the off seasons, to achieve the taking of a prize buck, in the purest stalk/hunt during hunting season. I know of poachers who kill bucks with rifles, during bow season, because they can get away with it.
Apparently they are both happy, with what they have on their wall.

There was a Minister, who called in sick, to Church, so he could sneak away to play golf, one Sunday. God, who knew what the Minister was doing,
told Peter "Watch this!" As God and Peter watched from the clouds, God made every swing the Minister made a hole in one. Peter was aghast, he said to God "You are rewarding him, for shirking his sacred duty ?" God replied "Not really. Think about it, who's he going to tell ?"

So, what it all boils down to, the point of taking a Prize Buck is bragging rights, status, and an epic (and true) story, of how you had the tenacity, wisdom, skill, and fortitude, and brought home a fine trophy, and made a big impression upon your hunting friends, with an epic story, which will be told, and re-told, for decades to come.

Hey, let's face it, you're out in the woods, and most game wardens are overburdened with large areas to cover, and rules, which, arguably, are difficult to uniformly
and properly enforce. There's the better chance you're not going to be caught, if you are reasonably discreet, and a little lucky.

But, when you look at that trophy, on the wall, year after year, regardless of what story you tell others, what are you going to be telling yourself?

If you have ever shot deer near a cornfield, squirrels in an acorn woods, or ducks and turkeys with decoys, I think you have your answer.

mcb said:

In Tennessee we have to be 250 yards from a feeder or bait pile for it to be legal to hunt. Once the food is removed you can hunt in the area after 10 days. Salt licks/blocks are not considered bait for these regulations.

Interestingly, last year in Alabama (where I live though I do most of my hunting in Tennessee) they have pass a rule change that allows a hunter to pay an extra fee ($15 resident, $50 non-resident) to allow them to hunt over bait (on private land). Seems like an interesting way to deal with the issue.

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Hey MCB,
Good to see a fellow Alabamian on deck...I'm right below B'Ham and above Montgomery. My hometown is Athens.

Dibbs said:

But, when you look at that trophy, on the wall, year after year, regardless of what story you tell others, what are you going to be telling yourself?

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Honestly, a lot of people deceive or delude themselves so long that they believe whatever it is they tell themselves anyway. So very likely, this wouldn't bother them at all.

Septicdeath said:

Do you consider baiting and shooting hunting?

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Doesn’t matter what I call it.

Septicdeath said:

There's no need to bait, if there aren't enough squirrels around it won't help. To me baiting makes me a shooter not a hunter, this is my opinion.

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So would a smart “hunter” avoid pecan trees, in the name of fair chase?

I grew up in a culture that deer were overpopulated and needed to be reduced. That is why I do not mind shooting a few does and that is why I don’t care if folks use, so called, advantages.

These days, I do not hunt over any “bait” as you call it. I have before but generally don’t. I also generally don’t hunt near bait.

The truth is that I don’t need to. The deer ARE overpopulated. I hunt around agriculture. I can, if I choose to, fill my tags in two or three days regardless of engineering food sources. I am a tinkerer though and I like to see the outcomes of action.

A mineral lick here. Planting a bunch of apple trees there. The walnut grove my dad and I planted 30 years ago. No reason for a food plot when there is 50 acres of corn and beans spitting distance away.

I do know that if you are hunting unfamiliar territory and want to fill a freezer, a feeder is a good way to do it and I have done just that.

JohnKSa said:

Do choose methods within the limits of what is legal and operate within the boundaries of personal ethics. Then feel good about the process and be satisfied with the results.

Inducing others to share one's personal ethics can sometimes be done with compelling arguments and heartfelt appeal. Trying to impose personal ethics on people by attempting to rework the language to fit personal opinion or by shaming them is a less productive endeavor only likely to produce controversy and to alienate others.

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True...60 years ago we did not have corn feeders or trail cams but sure looked hard for persimmon trees, oak trees or water holes to gain and advantage. Just like corn feeders today that did not always pay off. Deer have a mind all there own and quality deer are very smart creatures and will avoid easy opportunities during hunting hours. To each his own but I have to agree with JohnK here...

Technically baiting is not hunting, at least it is not if you use he dictionary.

From Merriam—Webster Dictionary
Definition of hunt
1: to pursue for food or in sport
2: to pursue with intent to capture
3: to drive or chase especially by harrying
4: to traverse in search of prey

Definition of bait
1: to put out bait, something (such as food) used in luring especially to a hook or trap.

So the two words are different in that hunting is going after the prey and baiting is bringing the prey a place.

Don't we have a "Hunting" forum here? This would get more exposure to hunters there.