Soap Selection and Rust

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gtrgy888

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As I’ve cleaned my revolver, I’ve wondered about the wisdom of using modern dish soap after my first few cleanings, where the metal parts were developing surface rust within minutes of being dried. The steel would be blue when wet and literally dried brown. Great for inadvertently antiquing the gun and giving it some character, since it buffed off with light oiling, but concerning for long term care. I’ve also wondered about how much lubricant is too much. In order to prevent and clean off surface rust caused by cleaning with dish soap, I was forced to liberally coat the outside and inside of the cylinder and rest of the gun with bore butter within 5 minutes to rub off the brown and protect the steel. Something had to be wrong.

I got to thinking about dish soap versus historical soap. Modern dish soap is formulated to oxidize and strip all oil off a surface. By contrast, lye soap seems to replace oil with a thin layer of lard, hence why it is great for sensitive skin. It removes dirt and grime and leaves an alkaline oil layer. Rust thrives on oxygen exposed, oil free steel. Is it possible that modern dishsoap is too effective at removing oil and completely stripping all oil off the metal is not the right way to clean black powder guns?

The last straw for me ditching the dish soap + excessive lubricant method in favor of traditional lye soap was the power loss issue over extended loading. Does it stand to reason that men living in the sagebrush cleaning revolvers for life and death struggle in pots over a fire would have cleaned off all residue then proceeded to slather thick powder-ruining lubricant over every working part in a process that requires a full hour of careful attention? And what did they clean with anyway? Probably just water and good ole lye soap.

I decided to give plain ole soap a try. Sure enough, after cleaning and drying, the blued steel stayed blue! No surface rust at all. All parts were covered in an alkaline film of dried soap, no excessive oiling required. I got brave enough to try NOT oiling the cones, cone threads, or chambers of the cylinder. For good measure, I still slathered the lockwork, screws, and barrel with liberal quantities of bore butter which I melted over the parts after oven drying. I left the cylinder completely alone, although I did brush off the soap film that was left in the chambers with a pipe cleaner. After a few days of sitting, no surface rust was discernible, and I decided to load up. So far the empty chamber remains as rust free as the day I cleaned it, and the cone still unscrews without any effort. This could be the solution to weakening powder as well as surface rust. Lye soap is definitely worth a try and I’ll be keeping it as my only cleaner for black powder shooting.
 
Hello gtrgy888,

I've always used Dreft baby soap. I've been using it for over 40 years.
I remember someone (probably my tutor) told me not to use detergents.
I always used Hot water for both washing and rinsing.
On my long guns, I let the barrel stand muzzle down for at least 1/2 hour before final drying & lubing.
On my revolvers I just lay the parts on a towel. I have used Ballistol on my revolvers as well.
I don't use oil, instead I use Thompson Center Bore Butter.

Hope this helps, AntiqueSledMan.
 
I don’t use any type of soap. I remove the barrel and cylinder (the nipples are removed and soaked in moose milk) I take them outside and flush them with the water hose. Then they are sprayed with moose milk and set aside. I strip the frame and clean the frame and internal parts with moose milk. The barrel and cylinder are then cleaned with moose milk. I have not had any type of rust on anything cleaning this way.
 
Not sure there was a "traditional" soap used on black powder guns in the 19th Century. I suspect all they used was plain ol' water. Since the turn of the 21st Century I've been using just a dollup of Simple Green in about a gallon of tepid water. No flash rust on anything.

YMMV,
Dave
 
I use Dawn also. I soak the parts long enough in very hot water to heat the steel up, then rinse with the hot water, then dry with a towel.
 
IMO rinsing thoroughly and drying the surfaces quickly, like with paper towel or q-tips, is more important than the brand of soap/detergent. Presently using Dawn on all my cowboy action BP guns to remove fouling and dirty lubricant, then protecting the exposed surfaces with Ballistol or Mobil 1 red grease. Stainless steel and blued steel guns both seem to find this agreeable.

But having said this, I would never try to convince any shooter to change a cleaning procedure that he finds satisfactory. Shoot’em, clean’em, enjoy’em. That is the MOST important consideration, not the details.
 
IMO rinsing thoroughly and drying the surfaces quickly, like with paper towel or q-tips, is more important than the brand of soap/detergent. Presently using Dawn on all my cowboy action BP guns to remove fouling and dirty lubricant, then protecting the exposed surfaces with Ballistol or Mobil 1 red grease. Stainless steel and blued steel guns both seem to find this agreeable.

But having said this, I would never try to convince any shooter to change a cleaning procedure that he finds satisfactory. Shoot’em, clean’em, enjoy’em. That is the MOST important consideration, not the details.

For shooting steel, I would agree. But for potential use of the weapon for hunting or defense in the backwoods, keeping lubricant far away from the chambers is necessary, since even small amounts of lubricant can seep into a powder charge over weeks of storage and degrade your .36 from 38 special/.380 ballistics to .32 acp when it’s needed most. That’s the main logic in using a soap that allows less lubricant to be used in the chambers, so the gun will reliably produce adequate power for as many weeks as needed. Black powder can store nearly indefinitely, but somehow begins to degrade when loaded? It doesn’t need to be that way if oil is never introduced to the charge in the first place.
 
When I say "protecting the exposed surfaces with Ballistic or Mobil 1" I do not include the chambers themselves. My chambers are washed, rinsed, dried with pieces of paper towel and a Q-Tip on the inside of the nipple. I never put any lubricant into a chamber, other than a smear of beeswax/crisco over the ball after charging. The longest I have left a revolver loaded is about a week, and experienced no failure to fire or noticeable degradation. I have no reason to leave a percussion revolver loaded for a long period of time. If you do, I wish you luck. Again, you must do what works best for you.
 
I agree with J-Bar, do what you think you need but it doesn't hurt to hear from other's experiences that allow one to pick and choose what sounds good to them.

I shot bp regularly from 1975 - about 2001. Started out with boiling water, soap blah blah blah . . . I actually enjoyed the whole "ritual" thing of it . . . then (years later) I got over it!!! I ended up just dry patching the bore and chambers followed with wet patches with Windex (diluted) , a brush through the bore, another wet patch. End with a dry patch followed with lube (Ballistol). That's really a pretty quick clean up.
Of course, the type animal I am, I'd still take the action parts out, wipe them with a Windex patch, dry them, lube with Ballistol and reassemble. Today, I would fill the frame with Mobil1 and forget about the action and check it annually. Easy peasy.

I've tried to make the cleaning chores for cap guns as close to "easy" as I can by taking the action out of the process. Just the barrel, cylinder and exterior is all you need to clean . . . with a "Mule".

Mike
 
I agree with J-Bar, do what you think you need but it doesn't hurt to hear from other's experiences that allow one to pick and choose what sounds good to them.

I shot bp regularly from 1975 - about 2001. Started out with boiling water, soap blah blah blah . . . I actually enjoyed the whole "ritual" thing of it . . . then (years later) I got over it!!! I ended up just dry patching the bore and chambers followed with wet patches with Windex (diluted) , a brush through the bore, another wet patch. End with a dry patch followed with lube (Ballistol). That's really a pretty quick clean up.
Of course, the type animal I am, I'd still take the action parts out, wipe them with a Windex patch, dry them, lube with Ballistol and reassemble. Today, I would fill the frame with Mobil1 and forget about the action and check it annually. Easy peasy.

I've tried to make the cleaning chores for cap guns as close to "easy" as I can by taking the action out of the process. Just the barrel, cylinder and exterior is all you need to clean . . . with a "Mule".

Mike

I’ve considered abbreviating the process in that way, and I probably would if I had less care about black powder residue. Every time I go shooting, I find tiny fragments and fouled lubricant in the action. Leaving those for any amount of time seems to invite rusting and parts breakage, even with Mobil 1. I find the soap and water method can go by pretty quick if I stick to some well practiced set up procedures:

Rinsing the barrel and cylinder with hot water and brass brushing out residue ~30 sec
Filling the wash basin and soaping the water: ~1 min
Filling the 2nd clean water basin: ~1 min
Taking apart the gun and submerging the parts in soapy water while oven preheats: ~5 min
Polishing parts under soapy water with pipe cleaner, brass brush, and stiff toothbrush then transferring to the clean water: ~15 min
Patting parts with towel and transferring to aluminum foil covered pizza pan: ~5 min
Oven drying at 175 degrees and lunch: ~35 min
Removal from oven, and still wearing oven mitts, melting Bore Butter on inside and outside of hot barrel, frame, lockwork and screws using a lube saturated bent pipe cleaner and dollop of lube rubbed on the small parts, cylinder and cones excluded: ~5 min
Careful reassembly: ~15 min

In total, an experienced shooter could manage this process in ~1 h 30 min. I find the modest time investment to be worth thoroughly removing cap frags and residue within an hour after shooting once per month.
 
I’ve considered abbreviating the process in that way, and I probably would if I had less care about black powder residue. Every time I go shooting, I find tiny fragments and fouled lubricant in the action. Leaving those for any amount of time seems to invite rusting and parts breakage, even with Mobil 1. I find the soap and water method can go by pretty quick if I stick to some well practiced set up procedures:

Rinsing the barrel and cylinder with hot water and brass brushing out residue ~30 sec
Filling the wash basin and soaping the water: ~1 min
Filling the 2nd clean water basin: ~1 min
Taking apart the gun and submerging the parts in soapy water while oven preheats: ~5 min
Polishing parts under soapy water with pipe cleaner, brass brush, and stiff toothbrush then transferring to the clean water: ~15 min
Patting parts with towel and transferring to aluminum foil covered pizza pan: ~5 min
Oven drying at 175 degrees and lunch: ~35 min
Removal from oven, and still wearing oven mitts, melting Bore Butter on inside and outside of hot barrel, frame, lockwork and screws using a lube saturated bent pipe cleaner and dollop of lube rubbed on the small parts, cylinder and cones excluded: ~5 min
Careful reassembly: ~15 min

In total, an experienced shooter could manage this process in ~1 h 30 min. I find the modest time investment to be worth thoroughly removing cap frags and residue within an hour after shooting once per month.

Understood but cowboy shooters shoot way more all year and I have yet to hear anything "unpleasant" after a year of no action cleaning. You see, if it's full of grease so there isn't any room for other "stuff" to get in and if it does, there is grease waiting to contain it . . . kinda like oil in your engine . . . you don't change it every time you take the car somewhere . . . After all the time and work put in revolvers for my customers, I try to make sure what's done stays the way it should.


Of course, it's yours so whatever . . . just trying to make it easier for some . . .

Mike
 
Having an action shield on the hammer really helps keep stuff out of the works in addition to hi temp grease. I took Mikes suggestion on packing the action with grease after putting action shields on all of my Colt replicas and hey, it really works.
 
Understood but cowboy shooters shoot way more all year and I have yet to hear anything "unpleasant" after a year of no action cleaning. You see, if it's full of grease so there isn't any room for other "stuff" to get in and if it does, there is grease waiting to contain it . . . kinda like oil in your engine . . . you don't change it every time you take the car somewhere . . . After all the time and work put in revolvers for my customers, I try to make sure what's done stays the way it should.


Of course, it's yours so whatever . . . just trying to make it easier for some . . .

Mike

It sounds like I might be too cautious. Is there a reason Mobil 1 works better for the action?
 
Mobil1 plays well with bp unlike a conventional grease. It's obviously an excellent lube but won't run out of a hot revolver or solidify when cold (Bore butter is basically "Chapstick"). I learned about it from the "racing community" years ago. I pack the frames of my cartridge guns (smokless) as well and consider it a "lifetime" situation.

Mike
 
(Bore butter is basically "Chapstick").

Bore Butter is basically mineral oil and micronized paraffin wax.
Mineral oil is one of the basic ingredients of Ballistol.
Pharmaceutical grade mineral oil which is sold as a laxative, is safe for human consumption, is a good metal preservative, inexpensive, and easy to replace after washing the revolver.
Vaseline is also a blend of mineral oils and waxes.
 
Bore Butter is basically mineral oil and micronized paraffin wax.
Mineral oil is one of the basic ingredients of Ballistol.
Pharmaceutical grade mineral oil which is sold as a laxative, is safe for human consumption, is a good metal preservative, inexpensive, and easy to replace after washing the revolver.
Vaseline is also a blend of mineral oils and waxes.

Yes, basically like waxy Chapstick. It is solid when cold, liquid when warm . . . not what l would pack a frame with. The nice thing about a grease that maintains its consistency is that it migrates around moving parts. If it turned to a solid it would "cavitate" or move out of the way of moving parts and of course when liquid would make a shooter mad!! Lol

Mike
 
Puddin' !

Here's one of a pair of Remingtons that won a State Championship SASS competition. Sent to me to check over for next year. These are the parts wiped clean of Mobil1 after a full year of CAS shooting with no cleaning of the action. They look excellent!!

20210727_101657.jpg


Mike
 
Puddin' !

Here's one of a pair of Remingtons that won a State Championship SASS competition. Sent to me to check over for next year. These are the parts wiped clean of Mobil1 after a full year of CAS shooting with no cleaning of the action. They look excellent!!

View attachment 1014411


Mike

Can’t argue with those results. I assume only black powder was used, or was substitute used?
 
Just talked with him and he said he uses APP and bp, just depends on what and where. He also said he shoots full loads.

Mike
 
@45 Dragoon Have you ever seen or heard of guns with issues cycling due to too much grease?

No sir. Never a problem with Mobil1 and I've never packed frames with anything else so I can't say that across the board. I could imagine that anything that gets solid in cool or cold weather may offer a problem but that's why M1 gets the nod as it has such a wide temp range.

Mike
 
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