Small groups impacted by caliber

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AJC1

AJC1

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Is it easier to shoot small groups with smaller calibers. I havent been shooting for groups very long but my experience so far says I do a lot better with smaller calibers. The breath of this testing is very short lived and at 100 yards as I develop accuracy loads. My best so far with a 308 is 1.01 moa and I shot a 6mmbr this week and got 3 groups in a row significantly better the best being .366 moa.
 
I think recoil, vibration, harmonics, etc. More bullet, more powder, more movement.

But 6mm seems a sweet spot, ever since the 6mm PPC dethroned the .222 and made the .22 PPC irrelevant.
 
AJC1 said:
Is it easier to shoot small groups with smaller calibers. I havent been shooting for groups very long but my experience so far says I do a lot better with smaller calibers. The breath of this testing is very short lived and at 100 yards as I develop accuracy loads. My best so far with a 308 is 1.01 moa and I shot a 6mmbr this week and got 3 groups in a row significantly better the best being .366 moa.
Click to expand...
6 br and variants are the most inherently accurate cartridge I have ever seen, you may not be able to return to 308 now as they just do not compare to a cartridge that can hit a clay bird at 500 yards then hit a small piece of the left over.
 
Relatively speaking on caliber no! But its hard to argue against a 6mmBR. That's a different animal not subject to peasant ammo, barrel and chamber. Nice shooting.
 
I shoot my 6 BRs better than I shoot my .308s at the bench . All of them are very accurate , For me it boils down to recoil ,if I have no anticipation of any recoil I shoot better . I am not talking huge differences , the 6 BRs shoot in the 1s when I am having a good eye day and the 308s shoot in the 3s and 4s . I know the 308s can go tighter because I have done it , it's just I lose a little concentration getting ready for recoil/blast . I also shoot .223 and can almost beat my 6brs , I attribute lack of recoil as part of that also .
 
AJC1 said:
Is it easier to shoot small groups with. . .
Click to expand...
Lower recoil cartridges.

Caliber, the nominal diameter of the bore, has almost nothing to do with it.

Recoil impulse needs to be resisted until the bullet exits the bore, and variation in that resistance causes variation on target. The smaller the recoil impulse, the smaller the variation will be, the smaller the groups will be.

With my heavy .223AI, the difference between a slack shoulder and a hunched up tense shoulder is <0.75MOA. With my .375H&H that difference is +4MOA. All that is a simple consequence of recoil.
 
Hoser said:
Exactly. But it is still a very accurate caliber.

A 30BR would be a lot more fun, but the Ultra and PRC are aimed at the long range shooter market and not the dude punching holes in paper.
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And I am happy every day we have options.
 
My 6mm’s are my most accurate rifles too but many of my 308’s were not built for precision shooting.

I think across the board rifles chambered in 6mm PPC, 6mm BR and off shoots would have better accuracy but everyone and their brother make 308’s and ammunition in various degrees of precision. You’re not going to find anyone making budget 6 PPC/BR rifles or cheap FMJ ammunition for them.

A 308 and ammunition made to the same standards is still quite impressive and differences on target insignificant to many people.

The difference between the accuracy between this rifle.

4BA9CA19-CBA4-4C69-A3D9-D9DF8ED87211.jpeg

And this rifle.

408C2353-F45F-4C99-8198-4542C70DDAF8.jpeg

Has more to do with construction than caliber.

Your results would be backwards if you shot a good 308 rifle ammunition combination vs a less than stellar 6mm rifle.
 
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jmorris said:
My 6mm’s are my most accurate rifles too but most of many of my 308’s were not built for precision shooting.

I think across the board rifles chambered in 6mm PPC, 6mm BR and off shoots would have better accuracy but everyone and their brother make 308’s and ammunition in various degrees of precision. You’re not going to find anyone making budget 6 PPC/BR rifles or cheap FMJ ammunition for them.

A 308 and ammunition made to the same standards is still quite impressive and differences on target insignificant to many people.

The difference between the accuracy between this rifle.

View attachment 1014026

And this rifle.

View attachment 1014025

Has more to do with construction than caliber.

Your results would be backwards if you shot a good 308 rifle ammunition combination vs a less than stellar 6mm rifle.
Click to expand...
Well my 6br is nothing custom and beautiful like that one. It's a budget build with a shilen match barrel and a savage action. Honestly I am very happy with .3-.4 moa groups. 20210721_075427.jpg
I'm letting my son test drive it as it was my dads and I've only shot it this one time.
 
edwardware said:
Lower recoil cartridges.

Caliber, the nominal diameter of the bore, has almost nothing to do with it.

Recoil impulse needs to be resisted until the bullet exits the bore, and variation in that resistance causes variation on target. The smaller the recoil impulse, the smaller the variation will be, the smaller the groups will be.

With my heavy .223AI, the difference between a slack shoulder and a hunched up tense shoulder is <0.75MOA. With my .375H&H that difference is +4MOA. All that is a simple consequence of recoil.
Click to expand...

When Service Rifle allowed AR15s into competition they quickly dominated matches. There is less recoil, and in the faster stages, you recover sooner to hold on to the bull earlier. Win.

AR15's own Service Rifle and everyone else is just in it for the honor of doing well with a vintage rifle.
 
AJC1 said:
It's a budget build with a shilen match barrel and a savage action.
Click to expand...

What is the .308 you are comparing it to and is the ammunition equal to one another component wise?

FWIW that barrel is more important than what action it’s fastened to. Not unlike the dies are more important than the press they are used in.
 
Anchorite said:
I agree, plus bullet manufacturing comes into play in 30, 6mm and 22. More development in those three calibers than any other.
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I think a lot of effort has been put in 6.5 over the years in Europe and the creedmore is igniting a lot of interest here.
 
AJC1 said:
Is it easier to shoot small groups with smaller calibers. I havent been shooting for groups very long but my experience so far says I do a lot better with smaller calibers. The breath of this testing is very short lived and at 100 yards as I develop accuracy loads. My best so far with a 308 is 1.01 moa and I shot a 6mmbr this week and got 3 groups in a row significantly better the best being .366 moa.
Click to expand...

Yes, somewhere around here I have an American Rifleman article on this very subject. They received their data from Remington. Remington guaranteed their 40X rifles to shoot half MOA, (at least for a 308 Win), so the factory was conducting accuracy tests on rifles. And the trend was, the bigger the boomer the worse the group. Magnum cartridge groups were significantly, and statistically larger, than small cartridges.

I don't have any pictures of my cleans with my 223 Space Gun, but that thing would regularly shoot high X counts cleans at 300 yards, in high power competition, and I have noticed, just how much easier it is, to have good X counts with sub caliber hunting rifles, at CMP Talladege.

Such as this

not a click adjustable scope so I just piled them in there without using a coin to move the turrets, but good group with a 6.5 Swede

QdLgoQR.jpg

gkwHyyX.jpg

good group with a 270 Win, more kick, but not causing flinches

8CvOtfU.jpg

ROc3A5L.jpg

Bart B claims the 30-06 cannot shoot straight, but it shoots straight enough for me

xJ94uGR.jpg

wFfzQ9w.jpg

4V6D74N.jpg

But, my 35 Whelen absolutely kicks the tar out of me.

I put on a heavier than normal barrel, and the stock is heavy, and I cannot shoot as tight of groups with this thing as the 30-06 and smaller crowd this may be my best ten shot group at 300 yards.

50Ze2ef.jpg

not uncommon to get one like this.

XFYzBVo.jpg

IoyDYvV.jpg

A 200, 225 or worse, the 250 grain bullet going 2500 fps absolutely knocks me out of position and I have to reposition me and the front rest each shot.

Now I have been told by the 50 caliber Browning crowd they regularly shoot clover leaf groups at 300 yards, with military ball ammunition! But take a look at the weight of the things, an AR-50 is 34 pounds, a Noreen 32 lbs, someone makes an 18 pounder, the recoil must be excruciating.

All things consider, the less recoil, the tighter the groups.
 
Slamfire said:
Yes, somewhere around here I have an American Rifleman article on this very subject. They received their data from Remington. Remington guaranteed their 40X rifles to shoot half MOA, (at least for a 308 Win), so the factory was conducting accuracy tests on rifles. And the trend was, the bigger the boomer the worse the group. Magnum cartridge groups were significantly, and statistically larger, than small cartridges.

I don't have any pictures of my cleans with my 223 Space Gun, but that thing would regularly shoot high X counts cleans at 300 yards, in high power competition, and I have noticed, just how much easier it is, to have good X counts with sub caliber hunting rifles, at CMP Talladege.

Such as this

not a click adjustable scope so I just piled them in there without using a coin to move the turrets, but good group with a 6.5 Swede

View attachment 1018597

View attachment 1018598

good group with a 270 Win, more kick, but not causing flinches

View attachment 1018599

View attachment 1018600

Bart B claims the 30-06 cannot shoot straight, but it shoots straight enough for me

View attachment 1018601

View attachment 1018602

View attachment 1018603

But, my 35 Whelen absolutely kicks the tar out of me.

I put on a heavier than normal barrel, and the stock is heavy, and I cannot shoot as tight of groups with this thing as the 30-06 and smaller crowd this may be my best ten shot group at 300 yards.

View attachment 1018604

not uncommon to get one like this.

View attachment 1018605

View attachment 1018606

A 200, 225 or worse, the 250 grain bullet going 2500 fps absolutely knocks me out of position and I have to reposition me and the front rest each shot.

Now I have been told by the 50 caliber Browning crowd they regularly shoot clover leaf groups at 300 yards, with military ball ammunition! But take a look at the weight of the things, an AR-50 is 34 pounds, a Noreen 32 lbs, someone makes an 18 pounder, the recoil must be excruciating.

All things consider, the less recoil, the tighter the groups.
Click to expand...
I've never shot anything more powerful than full load 30-06 and have zero desire to do so. My 45-70 eats trail boss like crazy but it's fun, and even moving slow it hammers steel targets. 7 saum or 300 mag for long range competition seems like no fun and expensive.
 
If you're shooting at ranges where the bullets BC is a factor then smaller calibers (to a point) have an advantage. The best 30 caliber bullets are in the 200-215 gr weight range. In order to shoot them fast enough to be effective you really need a magnum case. Which means pretty stiff recoil.

As you go down in caliber you can use lighter bullets to get the same trajectories at similar velocity. The best 6.5 bullets for example are in the 140-150 gr range. You can get enough speed from a much smaller, lighter recoiling case. And with less recoil.

Its not that the rifles are really more accurate, but it is easier for humans to shoot them more accurately.
 
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