32-20 Aussie Martini Cadet Rifle
- Thread starter R.W.Dale
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R.W.Dale
Member
Mine traded hands at least twice in 20 min.
I bought it from the dealer who bought it and was putting it in his rack.
He probably stole it from someone not in the know. I feel like the $400 I paid was thieving
I bought it from the dealer who bought it and was putting it in his rack.
He probably stole it from someone not in the know. I feel like the $400 I paid was thieving
tark
Member
R. W., if you got the rifle for $400... you stole it.!
Gordon
Member
You can relatively easily rechamber to ..32 - 40 or .32 Win special. The extractor just needs a little opening up. A lot more horse power !
Don't get 32-20 dies for this application. 32-20 brass fireforms to the 310 chamber and using a 32-20 die will just resize it back down again. I don't recall the exact sequence, but I remember using a combination of 32 ACP and 30 Carbine dies to reload 310.
R.W.Dale
Member
I’m definitely going to see what can be done with the various dies I have before buying a set. I will need a shell holder though
I have a bunch of 314 Lee 32 SWC I cast and powercoated as well as an order for 500 heeled cast cadet bullets from Matt’s bullets. I should have plenty of fun experimenting ahead
I have a bunch of 314 Lee 32 SWC I cast and powercoated as well as an order for 500 heeled cast cadet bullets from Matt’s bullets. I should have plenty of fun experimenting ahead
tark
Member
I just don't understand this post. According to Cartridges of the world:
Base diameter. Neck diameter. Rim diameter
32-20 .353" .326" .405
.310 .353" .320" .405
The two are almost identical except for length. The 32-20 does have a slightly thicker rim, which is rendered irrelevant with the re-chambering. I have owned two Baby Martini's in my life. Both were re-chambered to 32-20. both shot very well with factory ammo. There was no swelling of the fired cases.
Geez... guys, let's stop trying to make something simple into something hard.
R.W., do you have any factory ammo to try? If you don't I can fix that.
R.W.Dale
Member
I believe he’s referring to the slightly necked 32-20 as opposed to the tapered cadet.
you would work the brass more than necessary
I’m not entirely sure I can’t use my 7.62 x 39 collet neck die to get just enough bullet tension to hold a projectile
you would work the brass more than necessary
I’m not entirely sure I can’t use my 7.62 x 39 collet neck die to get just enough bullet tension to hold a projectile
PRD1
Member
If you want good accuracy from your .32-20 chambered Martini, you will need to use a bullet of ca. .321" diameter, which is the average groove diameter in the cadet barrels. A heeled bullet is what was used in the .310 round. You might get good results from some of the 8mm bullets for the Nambu pistol, which run .320". Or, you could re-rechamber it for .32 Win Special, which uses the correct diameter bullet for the barrel. The .32-40 is another option.
PRD1 - mhb - MIke
PRD1 - mhb - MIke
tark
Member
R.W. Have you tried factory 32-20 ammo?
Explain to me how I got golf ball sized 50 yard groups shooting factory 32-20 ammo with .312 diameter bullets in the two Baby Martinis I have owned.
tark
Member
Hope you like nasty recoil.
tark
Member
Thank you MEHavey! factory 32-20 bullets are soft. they are obviously "Bumped up" in diameter by the fast burning powders used in 32-20 factory ammo. It is the only explanation that makes sense. All I know is I got very good accuracy out of my two Baby's shooting factory 32-20 ammo.
R.W.Dale
Member
Every once in awhile you end up with a combination that should not shoot good but just does
I'm not opposed to trying all sorts of combinations.
I bought some of the heeled bullets because I'm supporting a local Arkansas business. It's a good weight for what I intend to use the rifle for and I've never messed with heeled bullets so something new to tinker with.
I'm not opposed to trying all sorts of combinations.
I bought some of the heeled bullets because I'm supporting a local Arkansas business. It's a good weight for what I intend to use the rifle for and I've never messed with heeled bullets so something new to tinker with.
Dave DeLaurant
Member
Some similarly mysterious combinations have happened to me. I used some 200 grain .323" jacketed spitzers in my 8x50R Steyr M95 straight pull and was getting decent accuracy at 50 yards, despite a bore that a later slugging indicated should require .329" bullets.
In the other direction, I tried some 170 grain .319" cast lead GC bullets through a new 32-40 barrel that was evidently dimensioned for .323" bullets; the 15 yard target showed that at least half of those had begun to tumble.
Yup. Once fired, 32-20 brass becomes tapered like an M1 Carbine case, rather than necked like a 32-20. Resizing with a 32-20 die would put the shoulder back into the fireformed case, resulting in a lot of working of the brass and short case life. Which is something you don't want after you've gone to all the trouble to thin the rims.
tark
Member
Have you been reading any of my posts? A 310 re-chambered to 32-20 no longer has a 310 chamber, it has a 32-20 chamber. The thicker 32-20 rims are no longer a problem because of the re-chambering. The fired brass is not "Re-formed " in any way upon sizing. It does not become a "tapered case , upon firing, because the tapered 310 chamber is no longer there.
I don't know how to make it any simpler than that...
R.W.Dale
Member
Please tone it down a little and let’s be civil
it’s really simple. If you run a 32/20 reamer into a 310 chamber it’s not going to remove metal where the reamer doesn’t touch. So you really only have a deeper 310 chamber with the rim recess cut deeper. The reamer isn’t going to make a neck out of air.
the only way to actually rechamber one of these to 32-20 is to remove the bbl, set the shoulder back a few threads and then cut a new “correct” 32-20 chamber. That’s not what has been done to mine. But it might be how yours was done
the cases are close enough that simply by removing a little metal at the rim is realistically good enough. The aussies claim many of these were rechambered with special a threaded pull through reamer so the barrels didn’t have to be removed.
I want to know these specs too so tonight I’ll dig out my cerrosafe and make a chamber cast if I don’t work too late.
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Bwana John
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- Sep 10, 2004
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- 2,960
I've been reading all your posts, and my experiences with projectiles have been very different than yours, but... I have no experience with rechambered Cadets.
My 2 cadets are still chambered for 310, and the chambers are different enough that I need to keep brass and loaded ammo separate. Unmodified 32-20 rims fit on one, but not on the other. Neither fits factory loaded .32-20.
When I tried .312 projectiles some bullets would keyhole at 50 yards. A couple " flyers" didn't even hit the 2'x3' target board.
With .322/.316 heeled projectiles I get sub 2moa at 50 yrs, and my eyes are old.
Here are some specs from new unfired brass
Diameter of Starline 32-20 case right in back of "shoulder"(.820" ) =.341"
Diameter of Bertram .310 case at .820"= .336"
Diameter of 32-20 case right in front of "shoulder" (.950") = .321"
Diameter of 310 case at .950" =.331"
So, at .820" length the 32-20 chamber is .005" larger in diameter,
And at .950" length the 310 chamber is .010" larger in diameter, the 310 tapered chamber would still there after rechambering 310 to 32-20.
I have 2 different makers sets 310 cadet dies, a custom 310 shellholder and RCBS 310 Cadet molds, but I do not full length resize after first firing, I deprime with a 30-06 die, bell the case slightly, seat the bullets with the seating/crimp die screwed all the way out, and use the middle part of the sizing die as a crimp die.
I use cut down fireformed 32-20 brass in one rifle, and cut down fireformed 7.62 X 38 R Nagant in the other, the Nagant ammo works in both.
My best accuracy came with using the softest lead I have to cast bullets, no sizing, and powdercoated (one coat ONLY no matter even if seemingly sporadically coated) Unique powder worked best.
A chamber cast helped me a little to fine tune the case lengths for each rifle using heeled bullets but trial and error woked best. A longer case was more accurate but engraved the rifleing into the bullet, and would stick a bullet in the lands and extracting loaded ammo would pull the bullet off and leave it in the chambeer.
The rifles bore diameters were hard to measure because of the 5 lands/grooves. Calipers end up on a land on one side, and a groove on the other of the slug.
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tark
Member
That kinda says it all right there...Lol. Look, I don't mean to start a fight here but we obviously have had different experiences. I have experience with two rechambered Cadets and both shot well with factory 32-20s and reloads. The fired cases looked the same after firing as the did before. There was no "sizing down" of any expanded cases. I used very soft lead for casting and did not size them. I knew about the difference in bore sizes and I liked Bullseye or 231. The bullets shot well and I didn't worry too much about them being undersized. I kept my loads light and I had no problems with leading.
I am a bit puzzled by your measurements. Did you measure the 310 cases before sizing? Cartridges of the world lists the outside neck dia of the cadet round at .320, not 331. You, on the other hand, actually measured new .310 cases, so I'm gonna believe you instead of the book.
I just wish I still had my two cadet rifles. It will be interesting to see how the O.P. fares.
R.W.Dale
Member
I’m still waiting for the cast to do its hour long rest to becoming actual size. But thanks to Tark and his generous offer of brass you can see this particular rifle ends up with a chamber not quite 310 greener and not quite 32/20
Bwana John
Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
- Messages
- 2,960
The cases are new, not sized, unfired. The cases were not measured at the case mouth, but at the start of the neck of the 32-20, and the same distance on the .310, BUT... this was using new Bertram 310 brass which is too short for my molds bullets, and has exceeding thick brass walls at the mouth, making it too small in inside diameter for my .322/.316 bullets without inside case reaming.
I remembered I also have some factory Kynoch .310 Cadet loaded ammo, I dug them out and the diameter of these cases at the case mouth is .332", then reduces to .325" (?!?) at the .950 datum used above. This factory 310 Cadet round drops into both my Cadets chambers just fine.
My take on these little rifles is almost anything goes, chamber/bore specs are not done with "precision" and the 32-20 rechambering was done fast and dirty, get these things exported and sold (for $9!)
With their diminutive size, lack of recoil, nonexistent muzzle blast, light weight, good shooting, great sights, and fumble free cartridge size I consider them to be one of the best of the cadet/trainer rifles, even today.
I remembered I also have some factory Kynoch .310 Cadet loaded ammo, I dug them out and the diameter of these cases at the case mouth is .332", then reduces to .325" (?!?) at the .950 datum used above. This factory 310 Cadet round drops into both my Cadets chambers just fine.
My take on these little rifles is almost anything goes, chamber/bore specs are not done with "precision" and the 32-20 rechambering was done fast and dirty, get these things exported and sold (for $9!)
With their diminutive size, lack of recoil, nonexistent muzzle blast, light weight, good shooting, great sights, and fumble free cartridge size I consider them to be one of the best of the cadet/trainer rifles, even today.
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R.W.Dale
Member
As mentioned measuring an odd groove bore is challenging. My best measure by a couple of means is near enough to .320" to not matter in the grooves. A .314 bullet won't start so the lands are a little less than that. A nice deep rifling that would be forgiving.
Rummaging around in my die collection I've came up with the following to try
300 blackout neck die to size the case "neck" a slight modification will be made to the mandrel that won't affect 300,blk use.
Lyman M die for short rifle ran all the way in will work. Need a bigger expander plug.
Seat with the 300 blk die if not by hand.
This only leaves crimping. Or really just removing the case flare.
I don't expect to need to ever full length size at these pressures but I may be wrong.
Rummaging around in my die collection I've came up with the following to try
300 blackout neck die to size the case "neck" a slight modification will be made to the mandrel that won't affect 300,blk use.
Lyman M die for short rifle ran all the way in will work. Need a bigger expander plug.
Seat with the 300 blk die if not by hand.
This only leaves crimping. Or really just removing the case flare.
I don't expect to need to ever full length size at these pressures but I may be wrong.
tark
Member
I think you just hit the nail squarely on the head.
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