Noticing a generational shift in calibers. Older ones harder to find

I think a lot of the AR craziness has to do with peer pressure. If you happen to be old enough to have started hunting with a bolt rifle you're probably going to buy one to hunt with. Just like most won't buy a sxs or o/u shotgun to hunt with. I hunted with a sxs for about 10 years and always thought it was the best solution for upland birds although I owned other shotguns. I never felt a need to by an AR although I can see where one might work well for medium sized game chambered in the right cartridge.

The AR is nothing more than a style. People buy what they think their friends think is cool. Bolt rifles are still the best tool for larger game because of the large cartridge selection that isn't hampered by a certain magazine length. I never could see driving round pegs into square holes just for the sake of being trendy. The best tool for the job will always be used by a certain number of hunters.

CoalTrain49 said:

I think a lot of the AR craziness has to do with peer pressure. If you happen to be old enough to have started hunting with a bolt rifle you probably aren't going to buy one to hunt with. Just like most won't buy a sxs or o/u shotgun to hunt with. I hunted with a sxs for about 10 years and always thought it was the best solution for upland birds although I owned other shotguns. I never felt a need to by an AR although I can see where one might work well for medium sized game chambered in the right cartridge.

The AR is nothing more than a style. People buy what they think their friends think is cool. Bolt rifles are still the best tool for larger game because of the large cartridge selection that isn't hampered by a certain magazine length. I never could see driving round pegs into square holes just for the sake of being trendy. The best tool for the job will always be used by a certain number of hunters.

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Just because someone chooses to hunt with different types of firearms doesn't mean they put any less thought into their hunting choices. I'm 57 years old and love guns. What bores me to tears are scoped bolt action rifles. I have found I can hunt with other guns, even ARs, and be as effective as I need to be. The "best tool for the job" means different things to different people. I don't give a flip what people think is cool and neither should anyone else. Use what makes you happy and don't worry about what other people are doing.

CoalTrain49 said:

I think a lot of the AR craziness has to do with peer pressure. If you happen to be old enough to have started hunting with a bolt rifle you probably aren't going to buy one to hunt with. Just like most won't buy a sxs or o/u shotgun to hunt with. I hunted with a sxs for about 10 years and always thought it was the best solution for upland birds although I owned other shotguns. I never felt a need to by an AR although I can see where one might work well for medium sized game chambered in the right cartridge.

The AR is nothing more than a style. People buy what they think their friends think is cool. Bolt rifles are still the best tool for larger game because of the large cartridge selection that isn't hampered by a certain magazine length. I never could see driving round pegs into square holes just for the sake of being trendy. The best tool for the job will always be used by a certain number of hunters.

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Swing and a miss...

illinoisburt said:

A lot of people shoot, very few by comparison hunt. Changes in the AWB contributed some, but honestly the 9/11 attack and subsequent wars of the past 2 decades completely changed people's mindset about firearms.

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Demonstrably, the post war generation didn’t hunt as much as had pre-war generations in the US. Fathers stopped taking sons hunting. It took a couple generations now for younger generations to realize shooting as a hobby/sport/pastime, but the decline in hunting firearms started a long, long time ago.

What I do find interesting, as a whole, which is honestly incredibly compelling, is the shift somewhere around 8-10 years ago when the “average gun buyer” was “buying another gun,” whereas ever since, the “average gun buyer” is “buying their first gun.” So instead of gun owners being the majority of those who bought guns (4473 FTR’s), we’re seeing that the new majority over the last decade are non-gun owners buying their first gun. Meaning more hands are holding guns than in the past, which means more people support our right to own guns, and more people to resist irrational gun prohibitions. A tide shift from 30yrs ago.

Choctaw said:

Just because someone chooses to hunt with different types of firearms doesn't mean they put any less thought into their hunting choices. I'm 57 years old and love guns. What bores me to tears are scoped bolt action rifles. I have found I can hunt with other guns, even ARs, and be as effective as I need to be. The "best tool for the job" means different things to different people. I don't give a flip what people think is cool and neither should anyone else. Use what makes you happy and don't worry about what other people are doing.

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Accuracy was key for me when I hunted. Accuracy is never boring when game is the prize. Generally an AR isn't as accurate as a bolt rifle. I've seen a few 2K AR's that can't shoot 1 MOA while I've seen lots of 1K bolt rifles that can. I have one. Lots of people will dispute that statement but the fact is the AR was never designed with accuracy in mind. The military uses a bolt rifle (M-24) for the best accuracy available.

I'm not worried about what other people are buying to hunt with. I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

Varminterror said:

Demonstrably, the post war generation didn’t hunt as much as had pre-war generations in the US. Fathers stopped taking sons hunting. It took a couple generations now for younger generations to realize shooting as a hobby/sport/pastime, but the decline in hunting firearms started a long, long time ago.

What I do find interesting, as a whole, which is honestly incredibly compelling, is the shift somewhere around 8-10 years ago when the “average gun buyer” was “buying another gun,” whereas ever since, the “average gun buyer” is “buying their first gun.” So instead of gun owners being the majority of those who bought guns (4473 FTR’s), we’re seeing that the new majority over the last decade are non-gun owners buying their first gun. Meaning more hands are holding guns than in the past, which means more people support our right to own guns, and more people to resist irrational gun prohibitions. A tide shift from 30yrs ago.

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A lot of the young first time hunters (people under 30-ish) I've met recently did not come from families with a hunting tradition. Granted my experience is a survey of just one person's observations, but it seems like most were already involved in other outdoor recreation including shooting and happened to want to give hunting a try.

There's a reason the old calibers have been around and stay around. I'll take my '06 and 25-06 bolt and lever guns over anything else. Even my Win 30-30. You can drive into timbucktu and find those rounds on any shelf. Only exception is recent shortages.

One of the patterns I've seen of guys like me switching over from their traditional hunting rifles to AR's and mini bolts and stuff like that is that they bought one for recreational shooting and they found that they just like the ergonomics and modularity of the platform. They are fun to shoot and fun to build, and that led them to say hey, it would be nice if I had one of these I could take deer hunting.

That's the reason I took mine for the first time. I have a 7.62x39 that I carry around and shoot all the time and since I was rather fond of it I decided to take it with as a backup gun for my Krag and my Contender and see what I thought of it deer hunting. Well it rained and snowed the entire deer season so the Krag never got to come out and I shot 3 deer with the AR and 1 with the contender. I really really liked the compact handling of it in the deer stand, the low muzzle blast, it being totally impervious to the rain and snow, and easy to work with gloves on. I was underwhelmed by the cartridge performance on game though so after that I ordered parts to build an AR10 and a barrel to build my yeti. The AR10 ruined the balance and handling of the gun for me so that one went away, but the yeti is a winner. My 2 favorite hunting rifles are a single shot 444 marlin and my 358 yeti AR, big things in small packages.

30-06 is available almost everywhere ammo is sold, covid notwithstanding. I just checked ammo seek. 2 full pages of places to buy 30-06. Not sure why as it won't fit in an AR.

CoalTrain49 said:

30-06 is available almost everywhere ammo is sold, covid notwithstanding. I just checked ammo seek. 2 full pages of places to buy 30-06. Not sure why as it won't fit in an AR.

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That's because people only buy it a week before deer season

Just kidding I have two, I like them too.

someguy2800 said:

That's because people only buy it a week before deer season

Just kidding I have two, I like them too.

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And the prices will keep it that way.

CoalTrain49 said:

Accuracy was key for me when I hunted. Accuracy is never boring when game is the prize. Generally an AR isn't as accurate as a bolt rifle. I've seen a few 2K AR's that can't shoot 1 MOA while I've seen lots of 1K bolt rifles that can. I have one. Lots of people will dispute that statement but the fact is the AR was never designed with accuracy in mind. The military uses a bolt rifle (M-24) for the best accuracy available.

I'm not worried about what other people are buying to hunt with. I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

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I suppose the quote below threw me off. It seems as if you have given it enough thought to be fairly condescending towards AR owners.

The same could be said for Creedmoor and Tikka owners I guess.

CoalTrain49 said:

The AR is nothing more than a style. People buy what they think their friends think is cool. Bolt rifles are still the best tool for larger game because of the large cartridge selection that isn't hampered by a certain magazine length. I never could see driving round pegs into square holes just for the sake of being trendy. The best tool for the job will always be used by a certain number of hunters.

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I grew up hunting big game in Idaho and have always carried a bolt-action rifle in either .257 Roberts, .30-06, or .35 Whelen.

I caught the AR-10 bug last year and built a reasonable mid-weight rifle in .308. Took it out this Spring on some hikes in the woods and immediately regretted the decision.

The two extra pounds over my normal hunting rifle, as well as the bulkiness of the receiver, made it noticeably more uncomfortable to lug around the woods. Now being over 50 and out of shape, the AR platform is not viable for hunts out here where many miles of hiking in rough terrain are common.

I built two dedicated hunting rifles recently and they will do everything I need them to do. Both are under 8 lbs, both are bolt guns, and one is .308 and the other .30-06 Ackley Improved. And both will shoot half MOA.

As far as cartridges out here, the only LGS for 50 miles is fully committed to the new calibers. When I bought my Ruger Predator in .308, I had to go online because the LGS only carried them in 6.5 CM and .223.

Last Fall, I was shopping for a rifle and out of the dozens on the shelf, there was one .270, two .308s, one .30-06, and a couple of .300 WinMag. The rest were all 6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC, 300 PRC, or some other new boutique caliber.

And good luck finding a rifle in wood these days...

Yep I used to hunt with a shotgun then I bought a rifled shotgun barrel to shoot sabot rounds to improve my accuracy.
The shotgun with rifled barrel did the trick, I took a lot of deer with it but I missed a few too because in the thick woods we have around here the deer run through & you don't get the time for a 2nd shot from a pump action.
So as soon as Indiana changed the laws to allow the 300 blackout in a pistol I bought an upper & used the lower off my .223 pistol.
It was a great gun, easy to carry, easy to use in tight woods when you have to stalk through the woods without getting caught on everything. But the 300 BLK round has limitations, it drops off at about 125yds. So when the 350 Legend came out I saw it had almost no recoil, was extremely accurate & could reach out to 300yds. Most of the time I only can shoot 100yd or less but it is good to know it will do it if needed.
Last season this doe came running in & surprised me. As I pulled up my gun she turned & started to run, she turned to make it around a tree so that's when I shot taking out both lungs & the heart. It didn't need a 2nd shot but it was ready if I needed it. She bounced off a few more trees & dropped with a 30yd blood trail that a blind man could follow. I was using Winchester's 180gr soft points.

I will stick with my bolt 30-06. I had enough of the A R on my senior trip to S.E.
Asia.

Rubone said:

Out west in big country the big centerfires still rule. I have killed many Elk and deer with a 25-06, and also use a .270 WSM a .300WM, and a 30-06. I have various other options as well (.243,.270, 35Rem). A local favorite is 7mm RM. But no straight walled stuff, no ARs for hunting (other than using my AR10 for hogs in Texas, but that is a whole different story).

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I think there are plenty of guys using medium cartridges for deer but for elk and up I would agree that most guys are running at least a 30-06. I've really grown to like the 7mm-08 but I drew a good elk tag this year and I'll use my 30-06 or 300 Wby.

I do very rarely see AR platform rifles out in the field, it's just about all bolt rifles with some lever guns sprinkled in. For the type of hunting we have out here bolt guns are just a far superior option most of the time.

CoalTrain49 said:

I've seen a few 2K AR's that can't shoot 1 MOA

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There are a few “battle proven” brands out there which are known for high prices, reliability, and “mil-spec inaccuracy” which can run $2k, but in general, if an AR costs $1,000, it should shoot around 1MOA without luck being involved. I build a few every year still, about a dozen, and have built and rebuilt literally hundreds of uppers and complete AR’s which achieve that standard of accuracy, with a vast majority falling right around the $1k mark.

A guy can spend $2k to make it easier to shoot that well, feel better to shoot or carry, or simply look cooler, but it sure doesn’t take $2k to get 1MOA out of an AR.

Varminterror said:

There are a few “battle proven” brands out there which are known for high prices, reliability, and “mil-spec inaccuracy” which can run $2k, but in general, if an AR costs $1,000, it should shoot around 1MOA without luck being involved. I build a few every year still, about a dozen, and have built and rebuilt literally hundreds of uppers and complete AR’s which achieve that standard of accuracy, with a vast majority falling right around the $1k mark.

A guy can spend $2k to make it easier to shoot that well, feel better to shoot or carry, or simply look cooler, but it sure doesn’t take $2k to get 1MOA out of an AR.

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I'm not talking about builds. I'm sure you know the premium barrels. Try the 1 MOA challenge with the next Ruger or S&W you run across. There are plenty of bolt rifles that will shoot 1 MOA. They come that way out of the box. Do you guarantee 1 MOA on your builds?

Here's a Tikka for $657 or about the price of S&W AR.

https://www.scopelist.com/JRTXE316-Tikka-Tikka-T3x-Lite-308-Win-SYN-224--barrel-MPN-JR.aspx

I have no doubt it will shoot 1 MOA with a 22.5" barrel. I have a Howa 1500 that's 1 MOA out of the box. I think I paid about $650 for it.

The real reason is it's much easier to build a 1 MOA bolt rifle if you know how to build a barrel. Savage discovered how to do that awhile back. Cheap rifles, excellent barrels.

I personally watched a Marine shoot 1 MOA at 200 m with a $500 Savage .223 bolt rifle. He liked it so much he bought two.

Notice that Savage has never tried the AR market. There's a reason. It's a sheet show and anyone that knows anything about accuracy buys a bolt rifle.

Sorry to rain on your AR parade.

bikerdoc said:

I will stick with my bolt 30-06. I had enough of the A R on my senior trip to S.E.
Asia.

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It's a carbine. If you do military, HD or LE stuff you probably want one. Designed to do that and no doubt does it well. Maybe not the best choice for heavier than you game or something that can eat you in 2.5 seconds.

CoalTrain49 said:

Notice that Savage has never tried the AR market. There's a reason. It's a sheet show and anyone that knows anything about accuracy buys a bolt rifle.

Sorry to rain on your AR parade.

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https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=MSR

It is not difficult at all to build or buy a 1 moa upper, but it will cost more than an economy bolt gun unless you are lucky. Nobody is saying an AR15 is a superior platform than a bolt action, they have other features to make them desirable.

wbm said:

Nope. Not supposed to. Still laugh at Elmer's old gripe about Americans that came to Africa with big bore heavy recoil rifles that they could not shoot well..."if you can't hit it with a 30-06, nothing bigger is going to help."

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My sentiments exactly. Many “hunters” buy weapons in calibers that have “cool” names. The only bolt gun I ever used in my 60 plus yrs hunting large bodied game was the old-timey 30-06, which has probably dispatched as many or more two and four legged critters as any other caliber. I’ve retired that big boy. Now I hunt hogs only with my .357 lever gun, which has more than enough grunt for me, as an old senior citizen, doing my subsistence hunting.

CoalTrain49 said:

It's a carbine. If you do military, HD or LE stuff you probably want one. Designed to do that and no doubt does it well. Maybe not the best choice for heavier than you game or something that can eat you in 2.5 seconds.

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As has been brought up there are several AR chamberings that are perfectly capable of hunting elk, moose, bear, ect… They generally carry range limitations with them, but power is not lacking. If I was about to be mauled by a grizzly bear I would much rather have my 358 yeti in my hands than a 300 win mag or whatever bolt action. There is a tool for every job. A 26” 300 win mag is a fantastic choice for shooting elk at 400 yards but would leave much to be desired shooting deer at 35 yards in the woods. Likewise I would leave my 358 yeti at home if I were going on an elk hunt in favor of my 30/06, but when I go deer or beer hunting the 30/06 will remain in the back of the gun safe where it now lives because it just isn’t as good.