.455_Hunter
Member
Why would they have meaning for me? It's your family.
Have you asked the other grand kids or greatgrand kids?
How important is provenance to you?
- Thread starter Ivy Mike
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Why would they have meaning for me? It's your family.
Have you asked the other grand kids or greatgrand kids?
wiscoaster
Member
The "story" behind a firearm I've purchased does mean something to me so any material evidence supporting its story makes it more meaningful. I don't see any way that directly translates into dollars and cents because the value of something like that is entirely subjective. But, yes, to me "provenance" is important, does make a difference, and is something I ask about when considering a purchase.
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Ivy Mike
Member
Good to know, thank you.
I doubt this one is a family blade as it has actual Arsenal marks stamped into it. I guess you never know though.
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Ivy Mike
Member
I don't know, you seem to place more emphasis on some old rifles than I do. They are just some beat up old war trophies. Figured I'd offer them up first to someone who might appreciate them. I think your reaction is pretty telling of their actual value though. We're talking $1500, maybe a little more on a good day for all of it. I have other items of my grandparents that will never be sold, a couple clapped out rifles aren't all that important.
There are no other grandkids, the only other remaining heirs are my kids who are 9 and 5.
eyeshot
Member
Off them and buy something usable. Free up your safe.
.455_Hunter
Member
Neither of your kids will have an interest in military history or what their great grandfather did in WW2?
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Ivy Mike
Member
Will they?
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Ivy Mike
Member
Exactly what I was thinking. I've been thinking about grabbing one of the What Would Stoner Do? rifles from Brownells.
.455_Hunter
Member
I don't know. They are your kids.
wiscoaster
Member
Great grandparents are quite a bit of separation. I doubt if many kids even knew their great grandparents personally. I was still quite young when my greats passed. There are photos of them holding me as a baby, and I have a vague memory of some smelly old people in a dark room speaking a language unintelligeble to me, but that's about as close to my greats as I get. I think a kid has got to have some personal memory connection to have a real interest in their lives.
entropy
Member
Sure wish my Great Grandfather hadn't sold (almost) all his father's Civil War issue (uniform, belt, sword, etc.) to pay gambling debts. I have the belt buckle; the monetary worth isn't much, @ $700-1000 (Union NCO buckle), but it and the Ithaca clock he brought out to MN from ME are priceless heirlooms.
I am the last of my line, too, except for my 2 sons. First one to have a son gets the clock (in the future)- the other will get the buckle.
Not necessarily, if they led interesting lives. My Grandpa's aunt wrote a fascinating autobiography, which had her Dad's bio in it also (The CW Veteran whom I'm named for) as well as history of the family farm from founding to breakup in the will. She even mentioned how she lent part of her proceeds to my grandpa to start his auto garage.
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Ivy Mike
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That's kind of the point. By the time my oldest child reaches an age where he might care, WW2 will be nearly 100 years distant. His great-grandfather died 19 years ago and I myself had only just turned 21. My maternal grandfather did live long enough to meet both of his great grandkids but only the older kid is going to have any lasting memory of him and it won't be the man I remember from my youth. My youngest doesn't know who we're talking about most of the time.
I have no idea what either of them will be into, and my couple beat up rifles aren't the be-all end-all of WW2 history. In fact, they are a very small and rather inconsequential bit of it. If history is what either child will pursue, I'm hoping they'll do it the right way and actually do some real research. Read the books, examine the documents. View the pictures and the film.
More importantly, I have actual family heirlooms that pertain to my family. I have pictures of their house in the Arizona Territory when my grandfather hadn't been born yet. I have my grandfather's HS diploma that is a stamped sheet of copper. I have the telegram my grandparents sent to their parents in Bisbee, AZ stating that they got married and would be home that evening. Grandpa lifting a pistol from a dead Japanese officer isn't all that interesting, especially considering the condition of it and that FN made that exact same gun for something like 70 years.
PWC
Member
To those who care; the things we "own", own us as much as we own them. Sometimes it is hard to find another caretaker / owner who cares as we do.
caribou
Member
The 44, if matching and intact, should fetch you 500$ , easily, the type 99 350$-400$, the FN pistol 400$ + the sword is speculative, but if its 'issue' is 200-600$ or so, much depending on condition, maker and completeness.
If your selling it as a bunch to a collector add a couple hundred more $ if your papers are correct and the guns are listed on them by serial#.
I have an interest, if your selling, but I would need pictures of them, in detail, to make a deal. top, sides, numbers, bolts, and any markings, bore condition and any defects.
basic stuff for gun sales.
My personal interest is this;
My grandfather Frank served in the Atlantic, Mediterranean and the Pacific campaigns, aboard the heavy fast cruiser USS Tuscaloosa. From prewar escorting convoys from the German wolfpack, to being a true gunboat, exchanging fire with Vichy French sips and coastal batteries for Clarks landings at Morrocco, again and again, on to Sicily, Salerno, Anzio, the southern France landings, Utah beach on D-Day and after that, shelling Cherbourg. When the fighting moved inland, they were sent to the Pacific, Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
My other grandfather, Charles, was 3rd Marines, the chief parachute rigger on the jeep carrier Marcus Island, was wounded during the battle of Layte Gulf by a Kamakazi, recovered at Guadalcanal and was repple deppled back into the 3rd Marine for a couple months on Iwo Jima.
I have a couple of their trophies/souvenirs, and no can buy them. I have Charles's Jap map case from Iwo and a highly decorated 8 inch shell base from the #2 turret Frank served in. I also have my great uncles "Got Mitt Uns" belt buckle from his service in the trenches of France, 1916-18.
If your selling it as a bunch to a collector add a couple hundred more $ if your papers are correct and the guns are listed on them by serial#.
I have an interest, if your selling, but I would need pictures of them, in detail, to make a deal. top, sides, numbers, bolts, and any markings, bore condition and any defects.
basic stuff for gun sales.
My personal interest is this;
My grandfather Frank served in the Atlantic, Mediterranean and the Pacific campaigns, aboard the heavy fast cruiser USS Tuscaloosa. From prewar escorting convoys from the German wolfpack, to being a true gunboat, exchanging fire with Vichy French sips and coastal batteries for Clarks landings at Morrocco, again and again, on to Sicily, Salerno, Anzio, the southern France landings, Utah beach on D-Day and after that, shelling Cherbourg. When the fighting moved inland, they were sent to the Pacific, Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
My other grandfather, Charles, was 3rd Marines, the chief parachute rigger on the jeep carrier Marcus Island, was wounded during the battle of Layte Gulf by a Kamakazi, recovered at Guadalcanal and was repple deppled back into the 3rd Marine for a couple months on Iwo Jima.
I have a couple of their trophies/souvenirs, and no can buy them. I have Charles's Jap map case from Iwo and a highly decorated 8 inch shell base from the #2 turret Frank served in. I also have my great uncles "Got Mitt Uns" belt buckle from his service in the trenches of France, 1916-18.
This ^^^^^.
Each collectible or family heirloom item can be a gift from the past or chains tying you down into the future. It took awhile but I have finally learned to see an item for it's utility first. While the provenance of it's ownership in the family tree is important, there are times when things need to go. I shop a flea market 30 miles up the road and it's usually pretty full of local items, a lot of them are Amish or Mennonite ancestry - the kids are selling old furniture none need. Small bureaus, a chair, and end table, mostly unrestored and plenty of it Victorian. The shellac has turned black, restoring it would lose 50% of the value, it's sized for peope no more than 5'6" average, and it's no longer a style that is popular. Great grandma's dresser simply has little appreciation after 130 years.
Guns are no different. You have to have a desire to "caretake" them, to house them in a safe and undamaging way, NOT the attic or a damp leaky basement where rust and decay will ruin them. Rot usually will attempt to destroy everything humans own, and it sometimes requires more expense to preserve them than someone can afford. Historic documents? Books? Clothing? Sealed in nitrogen charged cases and rarely exposed to bright lights is how it has to be done, not dusty drawers in an out of the way place in the house rarely supervised.
So, you sell it hoping the next person can afford to pay double or triple the cost to keep it maintained and protected. I have furniture my mom purchased - found down a country lane sitting outside a barn being rained on. Solid oak local craftsmanship turn of the century side board for $10, and the owner was like, You really willing to pay that much? At least now there are flea markets for the exchange. Beats having it sit at the curb in the rain.
We DO have too much stuff, America has gotten fat and lazy with hoarding, the worst of it is all the plastic and particle board sitting in rental units mixed in with Grandma's old furniture. Oh well. How many rifles and guns do we REALLY need, maybe one each, that and enough ammo to carry for them is about all a soldier is given, and considering their life expectancy in real combat, being stripped of the bulk of it before being loaded on a stretcher is plenty of help.
As for "bring back papers" keep in mind that the older guns from WWII and Korea are at least on the surface pretty legit, however, after Vietnam much of the import market got only a casual inspection and those items which could be fraudulently documented were. Papers typed up on old manual machines with aged documents thrown out of administrative use are not unknown. If anything the typos tell the story, a proficient clerk rarely has any. yet a repro document may include one to appear authentic. You have to know the progression of how things were corrected over the last 40 years to catch it, a totally different forensics that is a whole new science to the military collector. Goes to: Buy the Seller. There is plenty of fraud and $10 spent on forging a paper to get another $50 in selling price isn't infrequent. Bring back guns aren't the province of a grunt actually working to disarm the enemy - they are the hunting grounds of the support system, where trucks, gas, and time to scout or buy them from others near the front lines. A small pistol or such can be carried in a pouch or backpack, whole rifles? A soldier already has the one he's got, nobody much lugs one back in from a patrol to keep. Dead weight is the enemy of a foot soldier and he has little regard for history when he's the one making it.
I have one weapon my father brought back, an Air Raid Warden's dagger from Germany he obtained while working the Berlin Air Lift. He said the previous owner attempted to use it against him. This was 1946-7 era. For many, the war wasn't over, and they had to be persuaded on a case by case basis.
.308 Norma
Member
That's definitely the way I feel too. I think it was sometime last winter when I posted photos of the two "Permit to Purchase Pistol" documents my wife ran across while going through a box of old papers we kind of "inherited" when my mom passed. My dad obviously had to obtain those permits from the Chief of Police in Ogden, Utah in 1958 when he bought a pair of Colt "Frontier Scout" .22 revolvers.
Dad gave those two revolvers to me probably 25 years ago, and I in turn gave them to my oldest nephew (Dad's oldest grandson) later on. But I didn't know a thing about the two permits until my wife ran across them last winter. Along with serial numbers, dates and my family's address at the time, the permits even listed the name of the store (Kammeyer's) where Dad bought the revolvers.
So yeah, the "provenance" those two permits provided really means something to me. And going by what my nephew said when I in turn gave the permits to him, the "provenance" really means a lot to him too.
BTW, my post about those two permits was moved to "Legal" because my question about whether or not "Permits to Purchase Pistols" are still required in Ogden, Utah (they're obviously not) really was a legal one.
caribou
Member
Sometimes you get "Lucky" with history, someone you know or are related to and a photograph of it.
My grandfather Charles, cheif parachute rigger for the carrier Marcus Island, during battle, was an "air observer" and watched his chunk of sky.
As a part of Taffy 3, during the battle of Layte gulf, the worlds largest Navel engagement, he was wounded by the second of a 2 plane attack. Both planes we splashed just shy of the ship but debris from the first plane and bombs skipped into the ship on the second killed 1 and wounded 20 more. Charles took a 1inch X 1 inch fragment through his thigh , nicked the bone,and nicked his scrotum....talk about "luck!"
As for photographic provenience, I have personally signed documents for a Black powder Rifle I used for a couple years on the show, untll my felony was tossed by the judge and I 'tossed' BP rifle to a friend and went back to my Mosin. I gifted it with a plaque and a statement that I had, indeed, gifted it to the man.
Besides military trophies, Hollywood guns can fetch higher prices with provenience.
My grandfather Charles, cheif parachute rigger for the carrier Marcus Island, during battle, was an "air observer" and watched his chunk of sky.
As a part of Taffy 3, during the battle of Layte gulf, the worlds largest Navel engagement, he was wounded by the second of a 2 plane attack. Both planes we splashed just shy of the ship but debris from the first plane and bombs skipped into the ship on the second killed 1 and wounded 20 more. Charles took a 1inch X 1 inch fragment through his thigh , nicked the bone,and nicked his scrotum....talk about "luck!"
As for photographic provenience, I have personally signed documents for a Black powder Rifle I used for a couple years on the show, untll my felony was tossed by the judge and I 'tossed' BP rifle to a friend and went back to my Mosin. I gifted it with a plaque and a statement that I had, indeed, gifted it to the man.
Besides military trophies, Hollywood guns can fetch higher prices with provenience.
Dang - I thought I was old-fashioned. Don't want any girls even having clocks?
Anyway, my daughters will inherit a Singer 1911 from WW2 and Browning Auto 5 that went hunting with Hemingway in the 20s, among other more recent shooting irons of no particular sentimental importance.
entropy
Member
The clock goes to the next family member with my name. I am a III; (Third) it skips every other generation. My Grandfather was named after his, I have the same name, and (Hopefully) one of my sons will have a Daniel. Danielle just doesn't cut it.
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