Are there any new standouts in the entry level AR market?

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I work at a gun counter in a pawn shop, so, here is what I see...most of the used ARs I see have never been fired or fired very little. After talking with loads of customers (most of whom think 200 rounds of ammo is a pretty good stockpile) I've come to the conclusion that most people that want an AR could slap together a $400 PSA and stick it in their closet and it would last just as long as a $1,500 Daniel Defense.
Now, if you think you may get to the range a fair amount I would pick up a S&W M&P 15 Sport II and go have some fun. If you really get into it you can change some parts and upgrade some stuff along the way and if not you have a very capable rifle sitting in your closet.
 
MistWolf said:
You’re not stuck with anything. It’s easy to trim the FSB and install whatever handguard you want. Or, the barrel can be pulled and sold for enough to pay for most (if not all) of the cost of a new barrel.

There are far worse things to be stuck with than the Colt 16” carbine gas system. An over gassed middy with a carbine weight buffer, is one all too common example.
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I should rephrase. You're "financially" stuck because who wants to pay $1000+ for a Colt 6920 then spend more to trim the FSB and add a free float handguard when you can buy a rifle setup with those things from the beginning? And who wants to buy a brand new Colt and immediately pull the barrel? I mean sure, you can do that. But it sounds like a pretty silly thing to do financially to me.

And maybe I'm wrong, but an overgassed middy with a carbine weight buffer is worse than a 16" carbine gas system? Worse in what way? A $25 buffer would be pretty cheap compared to all the modification you listed as option for the Colt. And personally, it's probably a good idea to have a few different weight buffers in your parts bin anyway.

It's going to take a lot to convince me that Colt is nothing but an overpricee my-little-pony roll mark (oh wait, they don't even do rollmarks anymore).
 
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If you don't like to fix your own stuff if something ever goes wrong then get a S&W or a Ruger or Savage in your flavor of choice because all 3 have top notch basically no questions asked customer service, and all 3 of them are going to be around for a long long time. Many other AR makers have come and gone either through acquisition or going out of business.

If you like to tinker and work on your own stuff and you know you are going to want the trigger to be just so or you want this specific stock or this specific handguard, or a specific type of barrel or whatever, then consider just building one or buying an upper and lower of your choice from Palmetto State Armory. I have bought a few parts from PSA and I helped a friend build a PSA carbine kit because he wanted to understand how it all works and I have to say I was very impressed with the PSA. The quality off all the parts was great and it was very accurate after we were done with it.
 
Olympus said:
I should rephrase. You're "financially" stuck because who wants to pay $1000+ for a Colt 6920 then spend more to trim the FSB and add a free float handguard when you can buy a rifle setup with those things from the beginning? And who wants to buy a brand new Colt and immediately pull the barrel? I mean sure, you can do that. But it sounds like a pretty silly thing to do financially to me.
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Not at all. I pulled the 16" barrel from my Colt 6920 and sold it for enough to cover the cost of a new Colt 14.5" SOCOM barrel.

You can cut your own FSB for nothing.

Not all free float tubes are created equal. No AR is available with the free float tube I want. Most ARs that come with free float tubes are lacking other things I look for. What is the primary advantage of a free float tube? Precision. However, how much precision will a free float tube get you if you're not shooting costlier precision ammo? Most people shoot blaster ammo. I see no improvement in precision with a free float tube compared to drop in handguards when using blaster grade ammo.

And maybe I'm wrong, but an overgassed middy with a carbine weight buffer is worse than a 16" carbine gas system? Worse in what way? A $25 buffer would be pretty cheap compared to all the modification you listed as option for the Colt. And personally, it's probably a good idea to have a few different weight buffers in your parts bin anyway.
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Buffers don't fix over gassing. Even if you drop an H or H2 behind an over gassed middy, it's still over gassed. Over gassed or under buffered (RE- carbine weight buffer) ARs have sharper recoil. ARs that are over gassed and under buffered are worse.

The 5.56 doesn't generate much recoil. In the AR, I think recoil is about 5 ft/lbs. But when recoil is sharp, even at such low levels, it starts to hurt after awhile.

Note: My comments about buffers apply using full power 5.56 ammo. Things change when using powder puff competition ammo or other calibers.

It's going to take a lot to convince me that Colt is nothing but an overpricee my-little-pony roll mark (oh wait, they don't even do rollmarks anymore).
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It's your money, it's your rifle. But, one problem with roll marking is controlling the pressure. Not enough pressure and the markings are shallow and incomplete. Too much pressure and the part being marked can be damaged. Another problem is the roll dies wear out and making new dies is expensive.

Machine & laser engraving is cheaper, easier to set up and easier to control quality.

I've given out more than a bit of hard won knowledge gained from experience & training. You don't have to accept it. I'm just sumdumgoy on the internet. But if you dismiss it without fact checking, you'll miss an opportunity to learn (or prove me wrong).
 
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Olympus said:
I should rephrase. You're "financially" stuck because who wants to pay $1000+ for a Colt 6920 then spend more to trim the FSB and add a free float handguard when you can buy a rifle setup with those things from the beginning? And who wants to buy a brand new Colt and immediately pull the barrel? I mean sure, you can do that. But it sounds like a pretty silly thing to do financially to me.

And maybe I'm wrong, but an overgassed middy with a carbine weight buffer is worse than a 16" carbine gas system? Worse in what way? A $25 buffer would be pretty cheap compared to all the modification you listed as option for the Colt. And personally, it's probably a good idea to have a few different weight buffers in your parts bin anyway.

It's going to take a lot to convince me that Colt is nothing but an overpricee my-little-pony roll mark (oh wait, they don't even do rollmarks anymore).
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I get what you mean. For someone that just wants to buy a rifle set up the way they want right out of the box, why buy a gun you have to change dramatically just for a brand on the side?

Most other rifle types are bought and used the way the manufacturer made them. Not a bad way to go for an AR if you only want one and want it ready to shoot with next to zero fiddling around required.
 
Just build a Bear Creek Arsenal AR in 350 Legend. Bear Creek has several discounts. If you are military or a veteran there is an automatic 5% discount. And they have frequent 10 to 20% off on uppers. Most uppers are $300 or less. That includes BCG. Their complete lower is $159.

So I got a deal on the upper in a 20" stainless barrel (350 Legend) plus the lower. All total, $427

https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/ar...te-lower-assembly-blackanodized-engraved.html
https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/ar-15/ar-15-complete-upper-assembly.html
 
I've become a fan of the Springfield Armory Saint. Excellent trigger, free-floated mid-length (1 in 8 twist) barrel, BCM or MagPul furniture, superb accuracy, nice flip-up sights, and cutting-edge cool looks. Mine is a keeper, fer sure...
saint.jpg
 
I just bought a Ruger 556 “pistol” for deer hunting (a light firearm for my wife’s all day carry). It has a 10.5” barrel which I though would be difficult to shoot accurately - I was very surprised at my first range visit that it is perfectly accurate at 100 yards - consistent 1” groups with factory PMC 55 grain soft tips. It has what I would call a horrible trigger but even with that handicap, it shoots rather well. It is basic but very functional - it’s shorter posture makes it a little unique but when you look at it you say, “Yeah, it is an AR (yawn). It does the job, it is OK.
 
My $500 Anderson feeds and shoots fine. Two inch groups off sandbags at 50 yards... Sig Red Dot and not trying for perfection, just keeping the hordes away from my TP. This is about my 4th or 5th AR over the past 30 years.
 
I like the saint, it came with the weird BCM I think, handguard thats comfortable, and one of the few legitimate lightweight barrels I have seen on a factory AR.
For AR's 99% of gun people won't need customer support. If it doesn't work at all, all the legit manufacturers will fix it. If it breaks down the line, you can fix it, or have someone you know fix it cheap.
Wear is not really a factor, the design nearly eliminated wear on every part but the bolt, and barrel.
My DTI, and M&A (with a bushmaster barrel, and tapco stock) are still the most reliable, durable, and accurate AR's I've seen.
 
I have a few between ATI and Colt, my most accurate is a 20" hand built, my only problem with my builds was with a BCG that was defective and was replaced from the factory. Currently you should be able to build one by installing a complete upper to a complete lower for around $450, then add optics and mags. I haven't priced lowers currently but pre covid Aero was around $50 and Anderson was around $35-40 when I was building my own. A friend has a S&W that was giving him fits so we started replacing parts and found the tube wouldn't allow the buffer to slide freely and they replaced it and included another mag, no other issues unless he shoots lacquered steel case ammo. I have never had an issue with BCA or PSA systems and I know some friends that have shot 1000s of steel through them (I don't know if it was lacquered or not).
I think the biggest advantages about building one is you can get the trigger, handguard, stock etc. that YOU want AND you better understand the guts of your riffle.
 
Conventional wisdom says buy a Ruger or S&W. Cheap and pretty good. I think the issue is, most people want something that feels “quality.” Nobody likes the idea of buying a “cheap” rifle. But nobody really wants to pay for the name of the Mil contractors or the full mil-spec test process. Easy answer is “buy Daniel Defense or Knights” but that’s no more guarantee than a PSA that you won’t have an issue that needs massaging either under warranty or from a buddy that knows his way around ARs.

But in terms of actual needs, the vast majority of people would be perfectly happy with a PSA, as long as they don’t look at the receiver and see that it says PSA and not Colt or Springfield.
 
Mosin77 said:
But in terms of actual needs, the vast majority of people would be perfectly happy with a PSA, as long as they don’t look at the receiver and see that it says PSA and not Colt or Springfield.
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And the solution to that is to just get a "stealth" lower from PSA and you won't see a logo at all. I actually prefer the "stealth" lowers over just about anything. It's like billboards on the sides of the 1911 slide. I don't care how expensive the brand name is, I don't want advertising plastered all over my guns.
 
Was a a friends house Sunday, we both have psa AR's, his is the fn 20 in a2 version that we put a1 triangle handguard's on. He was shooting in groups at 50 open sights, my 16 in nitride moe shot half that size, but using a 3-9x40 scope. We were testing handloads 62 gr hpbt and 62 gr fmjbt's. Both rifles functioned flawlessly. One cost under 450.
 
rdnktrkr said:
I have never had an issue with BCA or PSA systems and I know some friends that have shot 1000s of steel through them
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And here in lies the answer to the question about low cost ARs from various builders. They generally function fine as built by the factories either as a complete gun or snapping together an upper and lower (even when mixing brands). Just about all larger volume companies have figured out the pattern. More often than not if someone is having function issues with a newer AR its either a home build from scratch with something misaligned or a factory gun after modified parts are installed which didn't quite fit or were mismatched like a buffer weight. Accuracy, possible long term wear (20k rounds), and durability when repeatedly treated poorly are what we think sets the more expensive guns apart. The average person who actually fires under 500 rounds per year (or likely a couple 20 round boxes) will likely not be able to any difference. Mag goes in, bolt forward and shoots.
 
illinoisburt said:
And here in lies the answer to the question about low cost ARs from various builders. They generally function fine as built by the factories either as a complete gun or snapping together an upper and lower (even when mixing brands). Just about all larger volume companies have figured out the pattern. More often than not if someone is having function issues with a newer AR its either a home build from scratch with something misaligned or a factory gun after modified parts are installed which didn't quite fit or were mismatched like a buffer weight. Accuracy, possible long term wear (20k rounds), and durability when repeatedly treated poorly are what we think sets the more expensive guns apart. The average person who actually fires under 500 rounds per year (or likely a couple 20 round boxes) will likely not be able to any difference. Mag goes in, bolt forward and shoots.
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No weapon is going to last 20k rounds...at least stay accurate after that many rounds...

But you are correct. Outside extreme competition shooters, and military use...no weapon in civiy hands will ever see anything near that number
 
Megawatt maker said:
No weapon is going to last 20k rounds...at least stay accurate after that many rounds...

But you are correct. Outside extreme competition shooters, and military use...no weapon in civiy hands will ever see anything near that number
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That's kind of the point. The Lucky Gunner tests a few years back found these average rifles lasted 12k to 20k of sustained rapid fire over a couple days time before barrels wore substantially. They didn't have major failures which couldn't be easy repairs or simple parts replaced like a barrel swap. I think it's a good testament to the design and for a regular person any of the major name guns, even at the lower end of the cost spectrum, will be perfectly serviceable.
 
Or, put another way… it means that if you really don’t have to worry about even a cheap one going bang reliably, you should either save money and go cheap -or- put extra money not into a name more or less, but into an upgraded gun that has specific features you want, like a better trigger, specific barrel twist, nice optic, etc.
 
We have yet to discern what entry level means to the OP. If we define it as a price point or cheapest that anecdotally worked for a friend, that is a far stretch from picking the least expensive rifle from individual manufacturers and comparing them.

Having had a BCA in hand, hard pass, particularly given their shoddy record before they reinvented their company name (while retaining original ownership). Having bought a Radical upper complete, I would never recommend them. The issue I had was repeated over and over by owner reviews which I foolishly ignored.

Did the above eventually work? Sure. Did they pan out as rifles that inspired confidence which saved money over “roll marks”? No. While I agree the formula for building dependable ARs is widely known, I do not agree that all producers follow it.

If you have an ounce of diligence, a few select tools, and a clean space with which you can devote 2 hours time, you will know the recipe was followed. If not, spend more for a better rifle that won’t leave you wanting to swap parts.
 
Skylerbone said:
We have yet to discern what entry level means to the OP. If we define it as a price point or cheapest that anecdotally worked for a friend, that is a far stretch from picking the least expensive rifle from individual manufacturers and comparing them.
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The OP asked about specific entry level guns. None of these are the cheapest in existence. Any of them should meet those standards.

The Exile said:
M&P Sport II is what I'd get if I went into the gun store looking for a good entry level AR15, but I see a few competitors rising up I'm not terribly familiar with; The Savage Recon, the Ruger AR-556, a friend recommended I give the Springfield Saint a consideration
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I have had some rookies ask me lately, and I have steered them towards a Ruger AR-556, mostly because I have seen pallets of them at a couple of gun stores lately. I tell people a Colt 6920 is kind of the benchmark for quality, but I have also had people tell me that Colt's quality has been quite erratic over the last couple of years due to changes in production and bankruptcy.

My little M4gery I have been running the hardest, I built a DPMS lower with an off-the-shelf LPK, got an AR Stoner flat-top upper, put Magpul furniture and a Vortex red dot on it, and I have been driving it to deat. Intermittent cleaning, lots of Wolf-type ammo, and it just keeps running. I have never had a malfunction after a few thousand rounds. bang-bang-bang.

I really think that most rifles will work for most people most of the time. I think that the law of diminishing returns kicks in at about $1000. Meaning, you can spend more money on a rifle, but the return in quality will not be proportional to what you spent. I would tell almost everyone, buy a basic rifle, see if you EVER drive it to the point of breakage, and if you do, THEN consider upgrading. Most shooters never will.
 
My opinion is that PSA is generally the best option in the "budget tier" category. They had some QC issues several years ago, but they grew faster than they were prepared for. They have since remedied the QC issues and for a big majority of their guns, they run great, are built great, and have pretty darn impressive quality components they use, especially considering their CHF barrels. If I were wanting to buy the best gun possible for the modest amount possible, the PSA guns would be my recommendation. Buy a complete upper and a complete lower and slap them together. From there, it's all a matter of how much more you want to spend because I think everything else is equally GTG.

I will echo what @Skylerbone said and would not recommend Bear Creek Arsenal or Radical Firearms. I've seen a lot of BCA uppers that have had reliability issues. And I've read a ton of things about Radical guns having issues as well. I don't think either company is setup quite like PSA to turn out a high quality product for a modest price.
 
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