50 yards with defensive pistols.

Good Ol' Boy said:

Taking on a psycho with body armor and a SBR/AR pistol doesn't seem smart at any distance.

Probably why a team of ten cops likely with their own body armor and rifles went in to diffuse the situation.


Tell me again how this story correlates to the conversation at hand?

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Re-read my posts and your posts a couple more times and see if it clicks.

Sometimes you don't have a choice on engaging the psycho, and that location provided plenty of spots where an armed civilian could have been forced to engage at extended distance. But what do I know, I just been a customer there for 40 years. How many times have you shopped at that store?

.455_Hunter said:

Re-read my posts and your posts a couple more times and see if it clicks.

Sometimes you don't have a choice on engaging the psycho, and that location provided plenty of spots where an armed civilian could have been forced to engage at extended distance. But what do I know, I just been a customer there for 40 years. How many times have you shopped at that store?

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..............reading.......reading.....



Nope, still nothing.

I wish you had been at your local supermarket when that incident happened so you could've shown us all how its done.

I still say its impractical and unrealistic in the real word.

If you're 50yrds away from a crazy with a rifle and body armor you likely can 99% unass yourself from the situation.

So I'm gonna weigh in on this topic, and as always, my perspective probably won't be popular. But I'm thinkin', if you can't hit an 8 to 10" paper plate at 50 yards with a handgun (full-size) at least once out of four or five shots, you don't shoot enough.

I'm of the belief that one should always train to a worst-case scenario. Hence, I'm gonna practice shooting beyond the square range distance of 25 yards with all (including compact and sub-compact) my handguns.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence out there that both law enforcement and private citizens may on occasion need to make a long shot with a handgun on a bad guy.

Or, one can simply practice sprinting in the opposite direction; no worries about further loss of life.

I'll provide an example of a real-life situation where 1) safe retreat was impossible and 2) a long, accurate head shot, using a handgun, taken from behind concealment, would have been an appropriate response for any good, sane, moral person:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora,_Colorado_shooting

The last time I was in a theatre like this, the single exit was quite close to the the front row, and the upper rows of seats had to be at least 25-35 yards from the front row.

Any murderer close to the front row could control the exit, making safe escape impossible.

Unopposed, a murderer could methodically fire at anyone present, until he ran out of ammo.

No cover was available in the theatre I was in, making hunkering down a poor alternative.

Holmes did not wear body armour. But firing back at a murderer who DID wear body armour would require a headshot.

I try to learn lessons from real events, and then work to gain the skills to effectively deal with those situations. I'll continue to work on long, accurate shots with my carry gun.

If someone 50 yards away is shooting at me then my first priority is going to be to seek cover or flatten out if none is available. If I return fire it’s going to be from a supported position, either from around cover or flat on my belly

How about 90 yards

M&P 9mm


GP100



38 snubbie



All it takes is practice practice, with the help of a DILLON 650 to keep things well fed.

Good Ol' Boy said:

I wish you had been at your local supermarket when that incident happened so you could've shown us all how its done.

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I do wish SOMEBODY would have engaged this guy. Colorado has lost far more than just 10 citizens because of this incident.

I still say its impractical and unrealistic in the real word.

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The real world is the events and situations that you find yourself being a participant. Putting shots on a target in such a situation will be impractical and unrealistic if your training and range practice is solely limited to "center of blob" mag dumps at 3 or 7 yards. With many cases, and in this case, the shooter was inexperienced with firearms and the platform he was using. His single headshot on the responding LE (RIP Officer Talley) was NOT the result of comprehensive training regimen- it was a lucky hit.

If you're 50yrds away from a crazy with a rifle and body armor you likely can 99% unass yourself from the situation.

Click to expand...

Probably mostly true, sometimes definitely not. In this event, the terrorist approached and killed one individual who was "cornered" in an outside area where all escape routes increased exposure to the shooter. Eventually, the shooter "gave up" and did not target any other victims after receiving a relatively minor leg wound from LE once inside the store. A .32 FMJ through the leg in the parking lot in the opening act could have reduced the victim count by over 50%.

And frankly, many people around here are getting damn tired of these events occurring, and the "get away" protocol is changing to "engage", as what happened recently in Arvada with initial success but a tragic final outcome (a whole other topic).

When I was a resident of Pennsylvania I had membership in three Sportsmen's Clubs. The least frequently utilized aspect was the 50Yd line on the handgun ranges for the previously mentioned Sportsman's Club ( Millvale, Northside and Beaver Valley) I observed that over years of usage. I've been gone from there now twenty-five plus years but I would say its still the same. Here in NC I've observed the same trend. Most people shoot at bad breath distances and those that tell you they shoot at 50Yds are not being truthful!

it looks like the tucson leo was holding center mass and hitting a foot and a half out (one shot to the head and one to the lower abdomen). he probably had a couple misses right and left. i would consider this normal for a plastic bottom-feeder at 43 yards. i think the key here is that the officer was holding center mass and shooting just as if at 7 yards (or normal practice distance). that scenario (shooting @ 50 and holding like @ 7) might be worth practicing just for the confidence boost.

aim small hit small,

murf

Pete D. said:

“Sights for percussion revolvers are regulated for 100 yards.”

Are you sure about that? I have three of them and they all shoot dead on at 25 yards.

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Originals, depending upon brand and model, tend to be sighted for about 70 yards. I don't know if that was intentional or not, and of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

Repros are all over the map. A lot of them are still pretty high, and a lot of them are also way off to the left or right or lord knows. Getting three of them which are dead on for 25 yards is either luck or the result of someone who knew what he was doing.

50 yards? How about 75?
The Hickok Tutt duel:
https://www.springfieldmo.gov/1839/Wild-Bill-Hickoks-Shootout-on-the-Square

Some of you guys are really grasping at straws here.

Yes its "fun" to shoot pistols at longer distances. At home the most I can do is about 50yds. At my buddies a few miles away I can do 100yds. And yes I can hit targets, MOST of the time but not always. Thats slow firing with no pressure just like the videos posted in this thread.

Its still an unnecessary thing to practice for real world. If anything it will help you at closer ranges which are going to be considered SD ranges.

I'm surprised with all of the "legal beagles" we have on here no ones mentioned law, what we have left anyway.

And so far the instances I've seen presented where someone was "cornered with no escape", although specific details were not given, leads me to believe they were just cornered.

Newsflash, you're not "cornered" at 50yds. If folks were cornered two scenarios were available. Either one, and unfortunate, they were the first person to be shot and it was a surprise, OR there were shots fired and they tried to get away but had no firearm to wield. In the second instance of trying to evade after shots fired they "should" have had a firearm and it "should" have been at the low ready.

As for movie theaters I haven't been to one in over a decade. They are kill boxes and make for piss poor SD/ evading scenarios. I avoid places like that. Enjoy your popcorn and picture show.

There is great, and there is God like. This is God like:





I am pretty sure, I could have kept them in the black, when I could see irons. But not in the ten ring!

From my research, the 50 yard Bullseye Pistol match was added earlier 1950's, when too many cleans were happening on the 25 yard targets.

these are the targets at 25 yards



and this is what Ernst did, in a match, offhand at 50 yards, with a 45 ACP

jmr40 said:

50 yards, pft. Try 1000 with a 9mm.

WORLD RECORD 1000 yard shot with a 9mm Hand Gun! | S&W 929 by Jerry Miculek - Bing video

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I’m convinced that is all Computer Generated. Every time I watch it my mind is blown.

I spent the entire morning today “shooting” on a VirTra triple 12-foot screen computer registered and interactive scenario trainer.

https://www.virtra.com/overview-le/

Everything from my reaction times, shot splits, the number of shots fired. are all counted. All CNS hits, solid body hits, poor hits, misses, hostage hits, etc. control the action of the suspect(s) on screen in real time. Every input (shot, spray, taser) is recorded, graphed and compared to the data from thousands of previous students that the makers used as a huge statistical pool. My movements and communication are triggers for the operator to alter scenarios as they unfold; some were non shooters, some were nearly unwinnable craziness…none today were easy.

I’m no gunslinging Wyatt Earp by ANY stretch of the imagination, but I’ve been doing the job for 30 years, with 27 in pretty darn rough parts of So Cal. I spent 13 years on swat/srt teams, lead rangemaster for past 10 and been run through multiple generations of video scenario training and in force on force encounters dozens of times (Even had one force on force course on extraditions that was held on a Boeing 727). I am fortunate to say as a result I do have a bit more under the belt in this realm than most folks and I have a fairly good idea of my own performance abilities and limitations when the chips are down.

The one thing I can say about a legally armed civilian getting caught up in a shooting situation at home or in public is; don’t bank on things unfolding like how you’ve planned over the years at the range. With humans there is never such thing as an absolute, and rarely do pre-made plans work out like you think they will.

Since very, very few on this board will have the opportunity to spend a solid five hours using this latest generation machine like I did today, how you’ll react to a situation that requires a lot of evaluation and possible run/draw/shoot/no shoot/alternate force responses in a few seconds is just fantasy or guesswork at best. I will suggest to anyone with a ccw to get the training and practice needed so the fundamentals are down pat, be confident and competent at generally accepted distances (0-15 yards). But, also know how you’ll have to shoot and hit a torso-sized target with your sidearms to at least 35 yards (50 if you have a range that lets you shoot that far).

Again; though the odds are extremely good you’ll never be in a draw-your-gun situation, much less a shooting, if you are there are much higher odds that say this lethal encounter will be fought under 7 yards…but there are no guarantees. If it stretches out beyond 25 like at the grocery store or theatre events discussed above, being aware of ones limitations and abilities at distance is a big deal when it counts.

Sooooo, to the OP: go ahead, line up and shoot at 25, 35, 50 yds. See for yourself where you need to hold to hit at those ranges, find out how a little sight misalignment leads to a lot of bullet impact deviation at 50, etc. Have fun with it, you really can’t hurt your performance at 3-5-7-10 by doing so. And the best part is, if you’ve been practicing correctly you’ll probably be a little bit better when you move back to these closer ranges when you’re done .

Stay safe.

Guys shooting 8" steel plate @ 100 yards with 22lr rifles when i arrived. Carrying a S&W M60 2" 38 Spec in my pocket. Had to try it.

Standing 2 hands, hit gong with first shot. Lucky me.

243winxb said:

Guys shooting 8" steel plate @ 100 yards with 22lr rifles when i arrived. Carrying a S&W M60 2" 38 Spec in my pocket. Had to try it.

Standing 2 hands, hit gong with first shot. Lucky me.

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That’s the best feeling ever when you make a shot like that… like a bottom of the ninth, walk-off homer to win the game. Well done!

Stay safe.

i try to keep all my offhand shots inside ten moa. you kept yours within eight. nice shootin!

murf

OP's video and this discussion prompted me to head out to my range to see how I can do these days with my training gun (essentially the same as my carry gun) from distance. The question in my mind: could I hit a murderer like the Aurora Batman killer today if I had to?

I am no PPC champion, let alone one of the Gods @Slamfire showed us. I wouldn't even call myself a decent pistol marksman.

But I do shoot a fair amount...

Gun is an XD9 with TFX tritium combat three-dot sights. All shots taken unsupported, standing, with two hands. Target is a full-sized silhouette. Ammo is my reloads, 4.9 grains Bullseye, RMR 115 CPRN seconds. Gun and ammo is nothing special.


From 25 yards, 16 rounds, 14 hits, two misses:





From 50 yards, 16 rounds, 13 hits, three misses:





Adjusting my POA a bit, from 50 yards, 16 rounds, 14 hits, two misses




The answer to my question is that yes, I can reliably hit a murderer in the torso from distances of up to 50 yards should the need ever arise.

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm with Old Dog

Old Dog said:

So I'm gonna weigh in on this topic, and as always, my perspective probably won't be popular. But I'm thinkin', if you can't hit an 8 to 10" paper plate at 50 yards with a handgun (full-size) at least once out of four or five shots, you don't shoot enough.

I'm of the belief that one should always train to a worst-case scenario. Hence, I'm gonna practice shooting beyond the square range distance of 25 yards with all (including compact and sub-compact) my handguns.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence out there that both law enforcement and private citizens may on occasion need to make a long shot with a handgun on a bad guy.

Click to expand...

Longer shots should be practiced. I know of a part-time Patrolman in the town I grew-up in who was a PPC shooter and who was forced to make a 70yard shot at nite-time, hitting a robber in the back as he ran away but was still shooing at the Chief. The BG was dead when he hit the ground. And the parti-time Patrolman immediately became Police Chief. This was at a time when everyone older than him in positions-of-authority were WW2 combat vets who appreciated a job well done.

Last couple times I was at the range, it was the 50 yd line sighting in new scopes on different rifles. Both times I finished off the sessions with some pistol shooting at the same targets. I've probably shot my carry guns at the 50 yd line more than at any other distance. Yeah, it's slow fire because of the range, but weather the Glock 45 or Dan Wesson Guardian, I can hold all rounds to a group that would easily fit into a paper plate. Doesn't mean I'd treat a hostage rescue at that distance with a handgun as a non-issue, but given the potential for disaster with inaction, I'd risk it with a pretty fair amount of confidence... not that it's likely to happen. We train for when things go wrong, but keeping tabs on the situation can keep you out of most problems before they happen, and that's always the better resolution.

The real trick would be if you ever had to these days... defending a 50 yd shot, even a successful one, in court. The media would crucify you.

Fyi: 50 yards. NRA Precision Pistol. The national record for 20 shots slowfire at fifty yards (.45 cal. One hand unsupported) was set by one B.D. Harmon in 1982. It is still the record. 200 - 11X. The ten ring is 3.36” in diameter. The X-ring is 1.65”.
The second highest score was shot in 1997 by Ron Steinbrecker . 199 8x
This was tied by Steve Reiter in 2006.