Why I hate black stocked rifles

Status
Not open for further replies.
I love a rifle with a nice Walnut stock and deep rich blueing. Sako comes to mind as do a few Ruger Number Ones. But I appreciate a nice synthetic stock that doesn't change POI with weather changes and the weather resistance of stainless.

As to the M-16/AR arguments I'll just mostly stay quiet. My first AR build was pretty much a semi-auto version of the M-16A2. It ran fine but it liked to be clean. My M-1's on the other hand just run and run.
 
I messed up my edit the first time around, so I'll give this another shot ...

First, to all our brothers here whose opinions about service arms were formed in the actual service of our country, I thank you! You've come by your views the hard and honorable way and they deserve respect.

Speaking for myself, I find the entire sordid Stoner/Armalite/AR-10/15/M16 saga equal parts fascinating and disgusting. I've re-read Edward Ezell's book The Great Rifle Controversy at least three times, as well as his later Collector Grade book The Black Rifle (Vol.1). All of the shenanigans between DOD, Bureau of Ordnance and Springfield Armory make for a great story -- of how not to develop a service rifle in a hurry!

I remember when I first spotted the classic Armalite 10/15 profile on Jonny Quest (around age six), it seemed like something transported in from the future.

JonnyQuestPiratesFromBelowAR10A.jpg

It held a lot of appeal for me when it was still very new and futuristic. However once the Armalite's bugs were identified and overcome, the rifle gradually became so ubiquitous as to be almost ho-hum. Like a Glock 19, the evolved AR15 platform works and seems to be everywhere. I don't think it's fair to call things that work well wrong or ugly. But for me when things become this practical, they no longer seem weird enough to be particularly interesting.

That said, I think the recent AR-15-related dialogs related to the WWSD project and Jim Sullivan's constant recoil full auto modifications are worth a look. The Retro designs also seem pretty neat.
 
Last edited:
as a hay seed farm boy who hunted since 8-9 years old and had my own rifle-shotgun and knew about keeping them clean, i had no trouble with the m-16 or the m-60 durning my senior class trip to vietnam. not saying there were no problems with the m-16,s, but i found that if keep clean and 19 rounds in the magizine and cracking the chamber when full of water the rifle worked for me. yes i did miss the m-14, but on long humps the weight mattered and having extra rounds for the same over all weight came home to me. i bought a colt M4 ar-15 for my personal defence rifle.
 
I always find it so funny when the armchair warriors claim articles such as this while simultaneously the men who ACTUALLY CARRIED and USED the M14 in harms way generally have high price for the weapon.

I just find that real funny.

You've interviewed everyone that carried an M14 in combat? That would be a treasure trove of information...and the basis of a good book on the subject.
 
This might well become my standard response to the "it was a POS and jammed when first issued in the 60s" type threads. In 26 years of service (23 active, 4 guard 78-05) I was issued M16A1s-M6A2s and M4s. Other than the crappy arms room magazines that:

Never received maintenance
Never had defective ones culled

I never really saw serious issues with the platform. Most issues were magazines and the whole "it's got to run dry in the sand" chit.
I had exactly ONE major malfunction in 8 years of service and it was the only major malfunction I ever observed. The selector switch on my M4 broke cleanly off when attempting to switch from safe to semi and left me with a weapon stuck on safe. Thank God for the M9 and transition drills.
 
I always find it so funny when the armchair warriors claim articles such as this while simultaneously the men who ACTUALLY CARRIED and USED the M14 in harms way generally have high price for the weapon.

I just find that real funny.
I carried an M21 in Iraq as one of five designated marksman in my company. My rifle was the ONLY M21 which survived the deployment in operational condition. Most of our issues could have been resolved had the supply chain been in place for M-14 / M-21 rifles, but that doesn’t change the fact that four out of five had catastrophic malfunctions during a one year deployment.
 
I have one AR but rarely ever shoot it so I don't care what color it is. I have a Ruger American in 243 that I'm not in love with but it will stay in a 1" group so thats good. I don't care for the black on black and have gave some serious thought to at least doing a camo color on the stock. Or maybe just a solid color like dark green or brown. I like earth tone colors so something along those lines would work. I don't think I will paint the metal.

As to the AR reliability I can't comment. I bought my gun the day before the Sandy Hook crap happened and so far all 80 rounds I have fired from it have been flawless. But I don't think thats much of a test. :D
 
I always find it so funny when the armchair warriors claim articles such as this while simultaneously the men who ACTUALLY CARRIED and USED the M14 in harms way generally have high price for the weapon.

I just find that real funny.
First, I didn't write the article.
Second, instead of attacking the messenger try actually refuting the points in the article.
Third, I have mil family members that ACTUALLY CARRIED and USED the M14 in harms way that generally think YOU don't know what your talking about.;)
 
There has been books writen about the unfortunate experience of the M16 introduction into Vietnam. I do recommend


The Gun by C. J. Chivers


I had to pay full price for mine, now the paperback versions are $3.50!

There are out of print books, I have read most of them. They cost too much to buy, so I have had to get them through interlibray loans. These are free to read:

https://discover.dtic.mil/

You have to go to the DTIC site and enter these titles in the search engine. There is no way to directly link to them.

Report of the M16 Review Panel Appendix 4 Appendix 4 Ammunition Development Program.
Report of the M16 Rifle Review Panel Volume 7 Appendix 6 review and analysis of M16 System Reliability.
Report of the M16 Review Panel Appendix 5 Procurement
Report of the M16 Review Panel Appendix 7 Vietnam Surveys
Report of the M16 Panel appendix 10 the small arms program
Report of the M16 Review Panel Summary Report.

It is worth reading Dick Culver’s experience with the introduction of the M16 into Vietnam. Be nice to Dick, he, like so many of the Vietnam generation, has passed beyond the vale.

The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam (part 1)
The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam (part 2)

I have talked to many Vietnam veterans while pulling targets at Club matches or the National Matches. The M14 was in country for a limited time, and so there are fewer men who carried the thing than the M16.

rTIcD1U.jpg

EFsPKBR.jpg

SRcHnWS.jpg

pictures from this:

AJnn63m.jpg

I met men who were there at the transition, and the early M16’s jammed and got Grunts killed. The men who survived are very upset with their whole experience. Today, many act as though the men who died were just nuts, bolts, or chips to be replaced as necessary, but they were living beings, doing their duty, and the whole Political, Industrial, and Military structure failed them. Just last week, we experienced another one of those, and reactions in time will be the same: denial.

Men who carried the M14 reported no malfunctions, the rifle worked. It was heavier, and the combat load was less. A Grunt carried 200 rounds with the M14, the combat load with an M16 was 400 rounds. Advantage M16. While the early M16’s were jam a matics, literally hundreds of millions were spent, which would be billions today, in a rush to develop the M16 to an acceptable level of reliability. Guys who were in service around 1968 did not have the problems with their M16’s that the previous tours experienced.

You would think that official dumb would care that the products they put in the hands of Soldier’s were not beta versions which got men killed. Nor that that the powers that be would lie and cover up their failures, but they did. And this outrage, more than anything else, still fuels the debate on the M16.

Now I shot my M1a for years and earned my Distinguished Rifleman Badge with the thing, and I shot the AR15. The M1a was absolutely trouble free. Because the only thing the 223 round has is velocity, competitors loaded the thing hot for 600 yards, and there was always someone on the line with pressure related issues. The AR15 nudged out the M1a as a competition rifle. The Army developed their M16’s to a high match grade in the early 1990’s, and the last year the USMC team issued M14’s on the line (as across the course rifles) was at the 1996 Camp Perry Nationals. I was there, pulling targets with a Marine who had the M16. He stated that the M14 broke more parts, which is to be expected given that the action of a M14 is about the same weight, but the cartridge has several times more momentum.

The high service rifle shooter was USMC Julie Watson, and she shot a M14. In 1997, all the M14’s were gone, and I asked the USMC Marines how the rifle was doing, and they said “about the same standing, better in the rapids, and a little worse at long range” It was in the rapids that the AR15 finally displaced the M1a. The M1a kicks, your position has to be perfect as it will knock you out of position. An AR15, you can be an invertebrate squid and still shoot a good score. When the X counts of AR shooters went up, that was when the M1a went away. Across the course is more or less won standing. The good shooters clean the rapids, and whatever points you lose at standing, you don’t make up at long range. It was in the rapids that the 223 excelled, everyone’s X counts went up. The difference in ballistic capability was to the 308 cartridge at 600 yards, but the advantage was not as much as, lets say, as a 6.5 mm round. I shot with a guy with a 6.5 mm, and his windage at 600 yards was half mine, with a 223 service rifle. It was a windy day.
 
I was once just wood and blued steel, but then I stopped hating and learned to love the darned, versatile, accurate things. Now, I think they're quite beautiful.
 
We were in later, when all the M16A1's had been rebuilt by Anniston, and yes they were reliable, though not as accurate as the A2. 9x56MS had the misfortune to have served with very recent Vietnam vets, some of who may have been in when the initial issue of M16's had the problems mentioned. Heck, I still heard "you can tell it's Mattel" when I was in, there were quite a few NCO's that were 'Nam vets, but most were just telling stories from their youth, and knew the A1's we had were much improved over the initial M16's which,

"
The original M16 fared poorly in the jungles of Vietnam and was infamous for reliability problems in the harsh environment. As a result, it became the target of a Congressional investigation.[76] The investigation found that:

  • The M16 was issued to troops without cleaning kits or instruction on how to clean the rifle.[12]
  • The M16 and 5.56×45 mm cartridge was tested and approved with the use of a DuPont IMR8208M extruded powder, that was switched to Olin Mathieson WC846 ball powder which produced much more fouling, that quickly jammed the action of the M16 (unless the gun was cleaned well and often).[12]
  • The M16 lacked a forward assist (rendering the rifle inoperable when it failed to go fully forward).[12]
  • The M16 lacked a chrome-plated chamber, which allowed corrosion problems and contributed to case extraction failures (which was considered the most severe problem and required extreme measures to clear, such as inserting the cleaning-rod down the barrel and knocking the spent cartridge out).[12]"

Thank you for being the first to post facts instead of a, "Joe and I were in a foxhole somewhere outside of Quang Tri and those darn M16s..." story.

Joined the Army and went through basic training in 1967 with the M14. Finished my training at Ft Benning in 1968 which included the one week Vietnam orientation where I first shot the M16E1.

When I got to Vietnam I was first issued a M14 which I only had for a few weeks when I was issued a M16E1. Later traded that for an A1.

I went into the National Guard and Reserves which included a few active duty tours. Got to use the A2 and M4 there.

I also went into LE and got issued a straight M16 there. Carried that in the desert with no problems.. Later on issued A1s and M4s.

There were only a few things I do differently than what I was trained to do in 1968. I found Dri Slide is a superior lube over LSA and Breakfree. I also like the full auto trigger over the 3 round burst used in the A2s. The 3 rd burst trigger is heavy, gritty, and the 3 rd burst has a memory.

Now I wasn't a special operator, commando, or anything like that. I have fired a few shots in social situations. The AR platform has worked well for me. That's over 50 years. The 7.62 NATO has better penetration. However, from personal observations, someone shot with a 5.56 or 7.62 were equally shot.

I've shot ARs only for fun in the past 16 years since I retired. If I had to pick a rifle to go into a fight with it would be a M16 or M4.

The Glock is also not a thing of beauty but it does work well too.
 
I ETS(ed) two months after you began BCT; my A1 in BCT was extremely accurate and never malfunctioned - subsequent issued A1’s at subsequent duty stations were also accurate and never malfunctioned. I was a very decent rifle shot and I kept my duty rifle clean and lubed. That was my experience with the A1’s that Uncle Sam loaned me; I would like to think that I knew what I was doing with the weapon but maybe my experience was just luck.
 
I ETS(ed) two months after you began BCT; my A1 in BCT was extremely accurate and never malfunctioned - subsequent issued A1’s at subsequent duty stations were also accurate and never malfunctioned. I was a very decent rifle shot and I kept my duty rifle clean and lubed. That was my experience with the A1’s that Uncle Sam loaned me; I would like to think that I knew what I was doing with the weapon but maybe my experience was just luck.

It wasn't just luck. You did what you were supposed to do and your rifle worked.
 
Last edited:
Something I think a real stinker, and was surfaced during the Ichord hearings, was the ball powder versus stick powder issue. The stick powder manufacturer was told to "qualify" his powder. At the time, the pressure specifications were higher than state of the art manufacturing processes could hold, so the powder manufacturer told the Army to go pound sand.


Mr. Ichord: I am sure Dr. Jackson has other business. I will explore this with you later, Colonel Yount. You were producing IMR-4475 up until what date, doctor, for military purposes?

r. Jackson: I think it was 1964. I can't remember exactly when in 1964.
IMR-4475 as far as I know was never submitted to the qualification test for the 5.56, that the CR powders and 8208 powders were submitted to. It was a powder purchased by the ammunition loader on commercial specification and submitted by him to the military as meeting the ammunition specification of the military. The powder was on a commercial purchase.

Mr. Ichord: I know the Army purchased a great many rounds of IMR.

Dr. Jackson: But the powder has not been submitted to the qualification test required if the powder is to be purchased by the military as such.

Mr. Ichord: You said you had difficulty meeting pressure limits in the specification. Was that because of producing it in larger quantities, or what was the reason for that?

Dr. Jackson: No, the powder was never designed to meet the pressure specification that was imposed on it by the Army specification. It would not have made any difference whether we were producing it in large or small quantity, we couldn't meet that pressure specification on a continuing basis.


http://bobcat.ws/rifle.shtml


Once DoD lost its powder manufacturer, it switched to M14 ball powder, which over accelerated the mechanism and caused lots of malfunctions.

The real stinker to me, the Ordnance Department reserved its stocks of stick powder ammunition and sent it to Colt for M16 acceptance testing. If the ball powder ammunition had been used by Colt , the increased malfunction rate due to the powder, would have increased the number of rifles being rejected, and that would have cost Colt profits. But, by sending the good ammunition to Colt, the Ordnance Department protected the profits of the Corporation.

However, they all knew the guys in combat were using the ball ammunition, having jams due to it, and good American boys were dying with jammed M16's in their hands.

So whose interests, does the Army Ordnance Corp really protect?

Ichord Hearing transcripts:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112109164266&view=1up&seq=5&skin=2021

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951p00793094y&view=1up&seq=5&skin=2021
 
Just an opinion but from my Great Grand, to Grand, to Father to me (ALL of whom served) their experience and mine up to 1980 proved to us at least that anyone who thinks the Government and the Military hierarchy have had the best interest of anyone except the Politicians and their supporters as important is sadly mistaken. One doesn't retire from Congress on $175G a year or a 1 or 2 Stars salary as multi millionaires on good budgeting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top