Handgun Ladder Loads w/o a chrono

All depends on what your looking for. A chronograph will tell you velocity and SD. For me, accuracy is my goal when developing loads.

In a pistol at short range speed and es mean almost nothing. When your shooting rifle at 1k es and sd matter a lot. Are you expecting competition accuracy out of a mass production pistol? Post what you have. What your loads are and how they are or are not meeting your expectations.

I use the chronograph to a) measure SD and b) tune my ballistics program. A lot of people use velocity as a proxy for pressure, some of them without even knowing it. It’s been my experience, and that of many others, highest velocity seldom coincides with best accuracy so I don’t chase velocity.

I use the chrono mainly to look for consistency. Sometime parts of the ladder start getting more erratic than other parts. Erratic velocities are going to lead to erratic accuracy at some point. Other use is to check your loads again expected results to see if you are in the ball park.

For handgun loads chrono is not needed. Ladder up the loads, staying within recommended load and use a shooting rest for accuracy. When the brass is clean and spread consistency is what you desire, you should be good to go.

I use the chronograph as a sanity check. For years I loaded without one, and (staying within published load data) used felt recoil, and how the brass flew to make sure I wasn't getting too weak or too hot. Then picked out the load that had the best accuracy and used that. But, I was also only using one powder and usually only one bullet for each caliber. When I started getting more powders and different projectiles, I bought a chronograph to make sure what I was expecting was what I was getting. For example, if I start seeing 800+fps out of my TCP (3" .380) with 100g Berry's loading Titegroup...I need to stop there. Early on I had loaded some that sure felt hot, but wasn't sure how much so. Later I chronographed them, and they were over 900fps. I ended up breaking those down. Other times, I've tried matching factory loads. I have some 115 gold dots loaded up that perfectly match the factory Speer stuff. Is a chronograph absolutely necessary? No, but it sure opens a window into the hobby and adds a new dimension of understanding and, for me, fun. Some powder and projectile combinations like to go fast, some have the best accuracy at lower velocities. My 5" 1911 loading 230g FMJ with titegroup give me, well, tite groups at about 760fps, while Bullseye with the same bullet tightens up at around 825. In 9mm, 115g JHPs with Power Pistol have excellent accuracy at 1260fps, with 115 FMJ I find Bullseye performs beautifully running at 1150. I could have gotten there without the chronograph, but it gives me a concrete data point to work with. Also let's me know from lot to lot how consistently I'm loading.

A chronograph measures velocity, not accuracy.

Your target measures accuracy.

Trust the target, ignore the chronograph.

winfreeokra said:

Whats most critical to accuracy? Velocity, max spread, or standard deviation?

Click to expand...

None of the above. See post #11.

I have never used a chrono for handgun loads. I work up a load until the powder burns clean and stay away from pressure signs and call it good. I haven't found much difference in 1 or 2 tenths of a grain as far as accuracy goes so I quit worrying about that quite a while ago.

winfreeokra, you will find this article of interest:

https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

winfreeokra said:

No, not expecting competition accuracy. Just bragging rights at deer camp chore weekends. I’ve just seen posts suggesting for handguns you don’t even need to do ladder loads but I’ve certainly found some sweat spots with some loads.. Could be completely random also but a couple have consistently yielded better accuracy over multiple tests.

Click to expand...

I’ve finally figured out a chronograph will give you Vavg, ES, and SD, and that’s about it. I find it to be interesting data, but not related to pistol precision and accuracy at shorter ranges. In my case I need to know velocity and SD, so that’s primarily why I use one.
If you want bragging rights, work on your trigger finger. All fundamentals need to be good, but trigger work is the key. Oh, and, watch out for those sweat spots, they’re bad too. Good luck.

It depends on what I'm looking for if I use a chronograph when testing pistol/revolver loads.

When looking for raw accuracy I could care less how fast or slow a bullet is going. Other "target" loads I wonder about and decide to see what kinds of velocity I'm getting. Like this plinking load for the 357 using 5.5gr and 6.0gr of bullseye powder using 2 different bullets @ 50yds. Both loads/bullets did +/- 2" 6-shot groups @ 50yds. Just want to see the velocity and sd of these loads.


When testing sd loads in pistols/revolvers I like to setup a chronograph. Awhile back I tested these bullets in a snubnosed 38spl using 5 different powders.


The end result was that some bullets performed at an extremely high level velocity wise while other, not so much. There was as much a 70fps difference between the worst bullet design and the best design. Giving up 70fps in a snubnosed revolver/sd load is huge & a simple bullet swap made a big difference. A chronograph picked up on this.

If I do any mechanical work on a pistol/revolver I like to test what I did over a chronograph. Lightening springs in revolvers for example can bring on erratic ignition that destroys accuracy. A chronograph will pick up on this. Same for testing different lubes/greases in cold weather.

Chronographs are also good for looking at what's known as diminished return of a load. Different bullet designs/what they're made out of/coatings/ect all play a part in how a bullet performs. Doing ladder tests over a chronograph will tell when it doesn't really pay to use more powder, this happens a lot with loads for the magnums. The book might say you can safely go another grain higher but the chronograph will point out you're getting minimal gain in velocity with the increase of powder.

Optimum bbl length/powder combo's are always interesting when tested over a chronograph. Some say use fast powders in short bbl's, others say a powder that gives higher velocities in longer bbl's will give higher velocities in short bbl's. Awhile back it used 4 different bullets and 3 powders (2400/mp-300/h-110) testing the different bullet/powder combo's in 357mag cases. I used revolvers with 2 1/2", 4", 6", 8" bbl's and a tc contender with a 10" bbl to test the loads in. I used the hottest/full house loads that I could for the 4 different bullets/3 powder combo's. The results were a real eye opener!!!

Anyway a chronograph is nothing more then a tool. How you use it is up to you

winfreeokra said:

Handgun Ladder Loads w/o a chrono ... Whats most critical to accuracy? Velocity, max spread, or standard deviation?

Click to expand...

Holes on target - Accuracy trend representing accuracy nodes during powder work up and verified by subsequent range tests to confirm consistency.

fxvr5 said:

A chronograph measures velocity, not accuracy ... Your target measures accuracy.

Trust the target, ignore the chronograph.

Click to expand...

+1.

Often, smaller groups are produced with powder charges that produced higher SD/ES. And sometimes, accuracy is produced with lower velocities (lighter target loads) when we anticipate greater accuracy as we approach max charge from more efficient powder burn (I see this often with faster burning powders).

winfreeokra said:

Is a chrono the answer to figure out what your gun likes or does it just take a lot longer to get there without one?

Click to expand...

No.

Reloaders and match shooters have been identifying accurate loads long before advent of chronos.

length_of_pull_1 said:

I haven't found much difference in 1 or 2 tenths of a grain as far as accuracy goes

Click to expand...

That's what I used to think but as I became more OCD about reloading variables and worked to eliminate/reduce them, I began to see that .1 - .2 gr could show on target especially when start/max charge range is around .5 gr for many powders (Particularly for small internal case volume higher pressure 9mm where small changes can produce significant results in chamber pressures).

Take a look at the IMR Target powder work up showing accuracy node where difference in powder charges are around .2 gr - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rget-any-favorite-loads.877952/#post-12033527

4.0-4.1 gr: 1008-981-991-1023-1034 fps
4.2-4.3 gr: 1049-1053-1067-1055-1085 fps
4.5-4.6 gr: 1162-1166-1138-1110-1151 fps



And same powder charge that reduced group size from slight reduction in OAL. There are reloaders who experience bullet setback around similar difference in OAL. But of course, if you do not measure bullet setback, you just won't know.



So if you are not seeing much difference from .1-.2 gr powder charge, it may be the case where other reloading/shooting variables are overshadowing the difference from powder charges.

In the recent myth busting digital scale zero drift thread, we discussed this where zero drift may not matter if other reloading/shooting variables overshadow accuracy/consistency of powder charges. But to match shooters like Nature Boy who have worked to eliminate/minimize other variables, .1 to .2 gr or even resolving powder charge to single kernel may matter.

BTW, here's a listing of reloading variables and myth busting work to eliminate/minimize them - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-10966692

I do use a chronograph after I find an accurate load in both pistol and rifle as a way to document FPS and SD for my records.

I have loaded pistol for years without one and have worked up some pretty good loads. I did have one for a year, but for me it wasn’t that helpful for pistols at ~25 yards or less. When I load for 38 I settled on the old classic of 2.7 grains of bullseye and a Lee 148 dewc tl bullet. Fortunately my revolver has adjustable sights and it was easy to sight in.
My 357 also has adjustable sights but early on I loaded 3 loads for it. One a light 38 bunny fart load, one a midrange plinking load, and a top end produce destroyer. With the second 2 I chose the bullet I wanted and an appropriate powder for the expected goal, then worked up a load going .1 grains at a time till I got the accuracy I was after. For me a chrono would not have been necessary as I’m after accuracy above all, speed matters little unless it offers the x splitting fun I’m after.
I have had the same experience with 9mm in a dozen pistols and an AR-9, accuracy(and function obviously) trumps all, even my defense loads are not top end loads, but they stack in the same hole consistently. I may dig out the old girl and see if she still has some life in her as I’m waiting on the heat and rain to back off so I can work up some 223 loads for 2 guns. I do believe a chronograph is an excellent tool for rifle loading if you plan to shoot outside 100 yards.

IMHO, I would say, for handgun defensive ammo a chrono is a must. Higher velocity=higher kinetic energy and at 7-10 ft accuracy is a non issue. I would also add in some rifles, such as 300 BO.

winfreeokra said:

Is a chrono the answer to figure out what your gun likes or does it just take a lot longer to get there without one?

Click to expand...

One of the more critical factors in accuracy is the bullet. If you have a bunch of crummy ones leaving the barrel at exactly the same speed, they still won’t shoot as small groups as excellent bullets at slightly different velocity’s.

Whats most critical to accuracy? Velocity, max spread, or standard deviation?

Click to expand...

Bullets hitting the same spot is accuracy. Velocity, ES & SD are down the list of factors as far as importance. Way down the list for handguns at typical ranges.

What handgun, is going to be a huge factor. The one on the right, even with the best ammunition in the world won’t be more accurate than the one on the left with less than ideal ammunition.



Also worth pointing out that what you use to aim can also make a huge difference. What one of these do you think has the best chance of repeating point of aim?

I’ve come across a few loads my gun seems to like with a couple powder/bullet combos based off consistent groupings but get really mixed results with others. Like nothing definitive or no edge out of 5 different .2g different charges? What will a chrono tell me that I can make decisions off of when I’m in those situations?

Click to expand...

If you are getting mixed results and your chronograph isn’t “telling” you there is a problem, that’s a good sign it’s not much help. They are nice to have but they are not crystal balls.

winfreeokra said:

Is a chrono the answer to figure out what your gun likes or does it just take a lot longer to get there without one?

Click to expand...

"Colt King Cobra Target 4”"
Yes. To both. And No, to both.
FFF is not really an issue with a revolver. It's a target revolver so knowing the V, SD, ES for documentation would be nice.

winfreeokra said:

Whats most critical to accuracy? Velocity, max spread, or standard deviation?

Click to expand...

Hand-and-Eye coordination, practice, fit of the grip to your hand, practice, knowing your range and where the "sweet spots" are for various ranges, practice, and using the sights appropriately or learning how not to have to use them at all... but mostly practice.