Buying a ghost gun before the ban

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You can argue it all you want but you are tilting wind mills. I don't like a lot of the so called new def. on words but if you think you are taking it back its a fools errand. Gay will never be someone who is happy ever again. Its just the way it is.
 
I don't argue stupid semantics like assault weapons...
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How is arguing about the definition of ghost guns any different? :D
It all lays with the serial number or rather lack of one.
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So if someone does an 80% build and puts a serial number on it, then it's not a ghost gun? Clearly it is still just as untraceable as it was before they added the serial number--it can't be traced back to the actual maker.

What if a manufacturer of 80% receivers put serial numbers on them? Would they stop being ghost guns once assembled? Of course not--the presence of the serial number still doesn't identify the maker of the actual firearm. The issue is obviously traceability and record-keeping, not whether or not a serial number is stamped on the gun.

What if a friend makes a gun and you ask him to sell it to you but he adds a serial number before he sells it. Does it stop being a ghost gun at that point? Of course not. Adding the serial number does nothing to make it traceable back to the manufacturer.
Most guns have had serial numbers on them since the Civil war. I have one Savage 22 that was my dad's that has no serial number on it.
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As your experience proves, not all guns made by a manufacturer have serial numbers and yet no one is complaining about pre-GCA guns that are unserialized or talking about passing laws to regulate them. Clearly it's not about the serial numbers.
...when the 1968 GCA was enacted. I own 2 .22 rifles without serial numbers made by major manufacturers, one in the 50's, the other (this is a SWAG) early 60's. Are these 'ghost guns'?
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Correct, it was the '68 GCA that mandated serial numbers. You are correct--your guns aren't ghost guns. What makes a gun a ghost gun is the fact that it's manufactured outside of the normal federal regulatory/record-keeping system. The presence or absence of a serial number doesn't really matter.
 
The fact is putting a number on a gun is not a serial number. Scratching a number is meaningless. The fact is that there are a lot of ghost guns showing up in crimes. This is not me saying I agree with banning them. But the fact is they are. I doubt there are many guns pre 68 that don't have serial numbers on the in crimes to any great numbers. There are people who have been busted who have assembly lines in their basement producing guns with out serial numbers for sale to criminal elements. So putting a number or a phrase on a gun does not take it out of the ghost gun category. But if you serialize it and give the maker and serial number to ATF it would cease to be a ghost gun. So when the rule comes to be ghost guns will not be ghost guns any more if they are shipped with serial numbers that ATF have a log of. No one will buy them to any great amount. Why would you?
 
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The fact is putting a number on a gun is not a serial number.
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That's some pretty impressive semantics for a guy who says they're stupid. :D
Those numbers if not registers with ATF mean nothing.
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EXCELLENT. We're finally getting somewhere.

You are EXACTLY correct. It's NOT the numbers that mean anything, it's the traceability. So one can't tell if a gun is a ghost gun or not by simply looking for a serial number. Even if there is a serial number it doesn't mean anything if the gun is homebuilt. And even if there isn't a serial number, the gun could be a firearm made before the GCA started requiring serial numbers.
So putting a number or a phrase on a gun does not take it out of the ghost gun category.
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That is absolutely correct. Which means, of course, that it's not the presence or absence of the serial number that makes a gun a ghost gun, it's whether the gun can be traced back to the actual maker.
 
If its not registered with ATF then its not a serial number. Its just a series of letter and or numbers you put on your gun no different then if you put some letters and numbers on a gun that already has a serial number. If you hold to the exact meaning of a serial number than if you put a number on it say you number your guns from 1 to what ever to keep track of them for yourself than by the def. it would be a serial number but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about numbers that ID a gun with ATF as to the maker and origin of the gun.
 
castile said:
The fact is putting a number on a gun is not a serial number. Those numbers if not registers with ATF mean nothing. Scratching a number is meaningless. The fact is that there are a lot of ghost guns showing up in crimes. This is not me saying I agree with banning them. But the fact is they are. I doubt there are many guns pre 68 that don't have serial numbers on the in crimes to any great numbers. There are people who have been busted who have assembly lines in their basement producing guns with out serial numbers for sale to criminal elements. So putting a number or a phrase on a gun does not take it out of the ghost gun category. But if you serialize it and give the maker and serial number to ATF it would cease to be a ghost gun. So when the rule comes to be ghost guns will not be ghost guns any more if they are shipped with serial numbers that ATF have a log of. No one will buy them to any great amount. Why would you?
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castile said:
If its not registered with ATF then its not a serial number. Its just a series of letter and or numbers you put on your gun no different then if you put some letters and numbers on a gun that already has a serial number. If you hold to the exact meaning of a serial number than if you put a number on it say you number your guns from 1 to what ever to keep track of them for yourself than by the def. it would be a serial number but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about numbers that ID a gun with ATF as to the maker and origin of the gun.
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Castile,

Your argument here is quite faulty.

The ATF does not "Register" any firearm by Serial Number.

The rest is purely semantics. I can very well describe a number that I apply to a firearm as a "Serial Number." You are free to disagree. But the term is not defined in the U.S. Code governing firearms definitions (18 USC 921), nor is it defined in the Code of Federal Regulations defining firearms terms (27 CR 78.11). Absent a legal definition of the term, you lack a basis to mandate its usage in the way that you would desire.

As a practical matter, the BATF does license commercial firearms manufacturers, and those manufactures are required (since 1968) to apply unique Serial Numbers to their products. The BATF does have the ability to query those numbers through manufacturer records (and not as a "Registration" as you have suggested) and has set up protocols to do so in very short periods of time. I once received the results of such a check in about 30 minutes.
 
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Rick, the ATF could create a Data base, or they can simply have the manufacture create a data base and keep the serial numbers in file. I would think you would have to serialize your ghost gun and put it in some data base.
 
Ok just checking in here, the question is have I bought a gun that you believe the ATF can't trace and the solution you are offering is to use my very not traceable super secret squirrel credit card, and have an item that definitely isn't associated with firearms at all shipped to my home? And then wait for the government to ban firearms and ????? PROFIT!
 
castile said:
Anyone buying a ghost gun or two before the ban? The prices are way down and I assume its due to the vendors not wanting to get stuck with a lot of stock after the ban.
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The last Republican President set the precedent to follow. If you are worried about a ban, ask the guys that stocked up on bump stocks before just owning one would make you a criminal.
 
I see two reasons for building a gun from parts. One is saving money, because the 11% excise tax has not been collected, and the other is to avoid a trace. The Pittman-Robertson funds from excise tax and licenses have done a lot for the shooting sports, including ranges and habitat projects, so I am only cheating myself by not paying this tax. The other would be to eliminate the tracing of the firearm, and I am more likely to benefit from a trace if it is stolen than to suffer because the gun was used in a crime.

I can't imagine owning a gun made by someone I cannot identify, so I don't have to worry about customer service or warranties. No, unfinished guns have no attraction for me. Those who think they may become more valuable because they will become contraband should have a backup plan, because we do not know what the future holds.
 
JohnKSa said:
What if a manufacturer of 80% receivers put serial numbers on them? Would they stop being ghost guns once assembled? Of course not--the presence of the serial number still doesn't identify the maker of the actual firearm.
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My understanding is that the serialized 80% frames have to be sold on a 4473 just like a completed lower. My source is that I tried to buy a couple from an online seller who then contacted me asking what FFL I wanted them shipped to. I could be misguided: she may have been quoting company policy than any particular ATF ruling. Maybe one of our resident FFLs can comment?

To the topic at hand: by my definition a pre-68 gun isn't a ghost gun because it's the product of a gunmaker and is legally a firearm as originally put on the market. You can't simply drop it in the mail and send to across the country to Joe Blow. A Polymer80 frame kit and the parts required to turn it into a legally-defined firearm are a ghost gun, since they can be transferred, mailed, given to a minor, etc. freely since they aren't (yet) a firearm. In a state with a UBC if I sell you an unserialized Model 37 Winchester shotgun I've committed a crime. If I sell you a Polymer80 kit and a bag of parts I haven't, assuming the state doesn't have some sort of legal verbiage in addition to the federal rules. That distinction is what makes it a ghost gun.
 
castile said:
Rick, the ATF could create a Data base, or they can simply have the manufacture create a data base and keep the serial numbers in file. I would think you would have to serialize your ghost gun and put it in some data base.
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Castile,

You're half-right here. The BATF cannot legally create a database, at least not from records collected under federal law. Please refer to 18 USC 926(a)(3) for the prohibition. Manufacturer's do keep databases of their products.

You're correct in that it would further the BATF's interests if the serial numbers of self-manufactured firearms ("Ghost Guns") were in some database, but that interest does not create such a requirement.
 
castile said:
If its not registered with ATF then its not a serial number.
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By that definition, only NFA arms would have serial numbers. They are the only guns that are "registered" with the ATF. Form 4473 is retained at the shop. When surrendered to the ATF in an investigation, or when the FFL holder closes shop, the ATF gets the paperwork, but as mentioned above is prohibited form creating a 'database' from them. Whether it really does so or not is the $100,000 question.
 
CapnMac said:
Well, there's no present evidence of a coming ban.
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I personally have zero interest in a ghost gun, 80% lower, unserialized anything, etc etc, I don’t really care what it’s called.
But the above statement is precisely why someone even slightly interested in them should be buying them, NOW. Don’t wait until a ban is eminent, then they either want be available or they’ll be crazy expensive….. the time to buy IS now.
 
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rust collector said:
I see two reasons for building a gun from parts. One is saving money, because the 11% excise tax has not been collected, and the other is to avoid a trace.
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I have built some from scratch just to see what I could do, not 80% because it seems silly to me to pay more for an 80% than a 100% costs. As far as “trace” that’s why they want to change the laws and make all firearm sales recorded.

As it stands now, a firearm can legally switch owners without either needing a record of sale or transfer of possession.

So, an “I sold it.”, works as well as an “It was stolen.” After they change the laws, of course, other laws focused on criminal liability of possession would come before confiscation. That way it would be a catch 22, as you would have committed a crime not reporting the “theft” before being asked for it and the “I sold it” wouldn’t work because it was not properly transferred.
 
JohnKSa said:
Correct, it was the '68 GCA that mandated serial numbers. You are correct--your guns aren't ghost guns. What makes a gun a ghost gun is the fact that it's manufactured outside of the normal federal regulatory/record-keeping system. The presence or absence of a serial number doesn't really matter.
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Well, I know you knew the answer, John, as do I , I wanted Castile to put on his thinking cap.

castile said:
I would think you would have to serialize your ghost gun and put it in some data base.
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Sounds like some bias revelation here.

castile said:
This is not me saying I agree with banning them.
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I think it is.


Elkins45 said:
My understanding is that the serialized 80% frames have to be sold on a 4473 just like a completed lower. My source is that I tried to buy a couple from an online seller who then contacted me asking what FFL I wanted them shipped to. I could be misguided: she may have been quoting company policy than any particular ATF ruling. Maybe one of our resident FFLs can comment?
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Company policy. Some other companies don't require it. I am sending an unserialized 80% lower to a firm that specializes in adding unique engravings, and they are adding engravings and a serial number-but it is not due to any regulations. The receiver will be marked to match my service rifle, and have the same serial # engraved on it. Since I cannot own my actual service rifle (I was still using it on May 19, 1986, and it was still US Property, so I couldn't get it on the National Register), and this is the only way I can get the markings I need, (I searched everywhere for a place that would do a 100 % receiver, no dice) I went with an 80 % lower, not for any nefarious reasons, or out of paranoia.
The engraver is in CA, and does CA-compliant serial number engravings for CA residents. It would not surprise me if they require CA residents to pick them up at an FFL, but the shipping info I got when ordering indicated it must ship to the CC billing address.
 
My understanding is that the serialized 80% frames have to be sold on a 4473 just like a completed lower.
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If they're truly 80% then they can't be frames and therefore aren't regulated by the ATF. If they have to be sold on a 4473 then they aren't 80%, they are actual firearm receivers.
If its not registered with ATF then its not a serial number. Its just a series of letter and or numbers you put on your gun no different then if you put some letters and numbers on a gun that already has a serial number. If you hold to the exact meaning of a serial number than if you put a number on it say you number your guns from 1 to what ever to keep track of them for yourself than by the def. it would be a serial number but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about numbers that ID a gun with ATF as to the maker and origin of the gun.
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Remember how this started?

Someone asked how to tell if a gun they bought at a yard sale was a ghost gun. You said they could tell by looking to see if it had a serial number. Clearly that doesn't square with this tortured attempt to explain when a serial number isn't really a serial number.

The bottom line is that the absence of a serial number is not proof that a gun is a ghost gun. It could be a home build, it could be a pre-GCA gun, it could be firearm with an illegally defaced serial number. Nor is the presence of a serial number proof that a gun isn't a ghost gun. It could be a home build that someone chose to stamp a number on.

No matter how one slices or dices, you can't tell whether a gun is a ghost gun or not by simply checking for a serial number as you advised.
 
CA started this mess so it seems to me that looking to them as the model/source would be prudent.

CA requires all guns have a S/N in order to be traced. The last I looked that included antiques.

In CA, the S/N must be added to the 80% lower/frame before completion to a firearm. The marking must meet minimum criteria just as the feds have a minimum criteria.

In CA, 80%ers now have to have a S/N issued by the state therefore it is registered and now traceable back to the mfgr which is the home builder who applied for the S/N.

I've posted the link a few times already.

But tracing to the mfg isn't important to them as it makes no difference who made it... they want to know who the current owner/possessor is.

In CA, the goal has been registration of whos responsible for the gun.

Tracing it to who owns/possesses the gun is whats important for future confiscation.

Tracing it back to the mfg isn't their goal as that's not who they'll be confiscating it from.

As I've said several times recently, look at the current administration and how many and what position are from CA and what positions they previously had in CA.

The Fed ghost gun plan will mimic CA if they choose to proceed.

Require all firearms to have a govt issued s/n assigned and be marked or be considered contraband.

Instant registration of ghost guns. Request Govt S/N (aka register) & mark gun or be a felon.

Y'all are making it sound complicated and unachievable when the process has already be successfully achieved and demoed.
 
In CA, 80%ers now have to have a S/N issued by the state therefore it is registered and now traceable back to the mfgr which is the home builder who applied for the S/N.
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Correct. The CA self-assembled firearm laws (ghost gun laws, if you will) are an attempt to insure they can trace homebuilds to the manufacturer

The CA UBC laws are an attempt to insure they can trace any firearm (self-assembled or not) to the current owner.
The Fed ghost gun plan will mimic CA if they choose to proceed.
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It will be interesting to see if they proceed. There are legal reasons that the 1968 GCA did not attempt to regulate home built firearms.
 
Criminals will make “ghost guns” and use them in crimes, or they’ll steal serial numbered guns and use them in crimes. Or they’ll use their legally bought guns to commit crimes. Big deal. If a serial numbered gun is used in a crime, so what? What difference does it make that they know when and where it was manufactured? It’s just ammo to make guns more traceable in another step to registration.

The whole thing is stupid, and just another way for antis to erode 2A rights.

“Sir / Ma’am, we found a serial numbered gun at a crime scene, and we traced it to you as the original purchaser, and to (insert manufacturer here) as the original maker.

“Oh, that’s terrible. Yes it was in fact made by (insert manufacturer here). It was stolen / sold / lost a few years ago. What IS this world coming to? Well, have a nice day...”

Arguing about numbers on guns is like arguing about license plates on stolen cars used in crimes. Just. Plain. Dumb.
 
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rust collector said:
One is saving money, because the 11% excise tax has not been collected, and the other is to avoid a trace. The Pittman-Robertson funds from...
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A 3rd reason is increasing personal hobby skills. A 4th reason is collecting. A 5th reason is keeping an American tradition alive.

kwguy said:
...guns to commit crimes. Big deal. If a serial numbered gun is used in a crime, so what? What difference does it make...
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...does it make, when they take the perp and let him / her out on 10% bond for really bad things. Then, the perp does more bad things.

Thank you, a VERY timely topic as, just recently, a proposal to eliminate/regulate these very items was posted and is now closed. I'm sure the alphabet agency in charge was just funnin' , and no regs are coming:p.
 
castile said:
The fact is that there are a lot of ghost guns showing up in crimes.
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That's only a very localized fact and only for a cities with large gang crime problems where the demand exists. Far from a widespread problem. "a lot" can mean many things, but in this case the facts are that it is a problem that has been limited to those urban high gang activity cities.
 
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